Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » film uneven on takeup platter (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: film uneven on takeup platter
Megan Penmann
Film Handler

Posts: 11
From: Gainesville, FL USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 04-03-2000 11:39 PM      Profile for Megan Penmann     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One of our prints of Romeo Must Die is wrapping unevenly on the takeup platter. (Film sticking up in various places; it looks like it's the same places every time). I know it's not the platter system because we've run this particular print in different auditoriums. What causes this? I know I've seen this before, but I don't remember what caused it or how we fixed it.

 |  IP: Logged

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-04-2000 09:33 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know there are a lot of different causes of this kind of thing but MOST of the times I've seen this it was becasue of some kind of film damage or becase of static.

Static: The "layers" of film stick together and an extra "loop" of film tries to go into the brain, sometimes casing a wrap. Answer: Get FilmGuard.

Damage: Usually becasue somebody mis-threaded the projector somehow. As the film rewinds on the platter it will seem to grow in diameter. It will also be kind of "spongy". That's becasue the sprockets in the projector have jumped the track, so to speak and have put little "dents" in the film. These dents push the layers apart becasue they act like "spacers" betwen them. Answer: Inspect the film. If it's damaged you'll have to get a new print.

There may be other casues, but these are my two best guesses.

 |  IP: Logged

Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 04-04-2000 09:42 AM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A bent or out-of-round takeup ring on the platter could be a problem, too.

 |  IP: Logged

Colin Wiseley
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 123
From: Blacksburg, VA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 04-04-2000 10:43 AM      Profile for Colin Wiseley   Email Colin Wiseley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The only time I have seen this was also with a damaged print. It had small cuts between the sprocket holes for the entire length of reel 2. As the platter would take it up, the cuts would sometimes lock together and the tension would pull the film up. It made payout a headache as well.

------------------
Colin Wiseley
Lyric Theatre
Blacksburg, VA
www.thelyric.com

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-04-2000 12:35 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Megan:

Excessively dry conditions in the booth can also cause winding problems. When the relative humidity is very low (e.g., in the winter when the heat is on, or in a desert climate), the gelatin emulsion on the film loses moisture to the dry air and shrinks temporarily. Since the polyester film base doesn't change much with humidity, the shrinking emulsion pulls in, causing the film to cup or curl excessively. Severe curl or incorrect winding tension may cause the film roll to wind unevenly, or take on the shape of a polygon ("spoking") instead of a perfect circle.

Kodak recommends maintaining a relative humidity of 50 to 60 percent in the projection room. At very high humidities (greater than 65%), the gelatin emulsion may actually get more soft and sticky, and the film can have "negative curl". At very low humidities, the emulsion shrinks so the film will have excessive "positive curl", and the film surface becomes less conductive, so static dissipates more slowly.

Every projection room should have an accurate humidity gauge to measure relative humidity. The low cost digital gauges sold by Radio Shack (e.g. Model 63-855) and Edmund Scientific are surprisingly accurate. Another quick gauge is to simply observe a short clip of free-hanging print film. It should have a very slight amount of "positive" curl, where the edges of the 35mm film curl upward only a few millimeters.

If the humidity is too low, use a humidifier to add moisture to the air. In moist or tropical environments, a dehumidifier or air conditioner may be needed to keep the humidity under 65%. Adjusting the HVAC system balance may help too.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

 |  IP: Logged

John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 04-04-2000 01:06 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Try threading the film onto the take-up deck with the soundtrack down to keep it even.

A year or so ago, we had a print that would "cone" upwards so much, it would pick up the take-up ring way past the two pins that hold it from spinning.

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-04-2000 02:13 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok, I guess I'll ask it. What kind of platter?

I find this to be from print damage in the sprockets 99% of the time. I have also seen this from excessive takeup tension on an older SPECO with the single elevator roller.

 |  IP: Logged

Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-04-2000 06:05 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have had this happen a few times in the past on my Christie AW3's. I actually watched it occur once, and I could not find anything wrong with the thread or sprockets. My guess would be the humidity. It used to happen fairly often, but Lethal Weapon 4 was the last print that did it. It stopped as suddenly as it started. However, once the print was like that, it would never ever go back to winding evenly, no matter what.

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-04-2000 06:18 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
True, could be the print. I ran a print of "Basketball Diaries" that was absolutely perfect to look at on the bench (and on screen)...but would NOT wind flat, regardless of winding tensions/emulsion in/emulsion out/reels/platters/cores...NOTHING.

It was quite bizarre, but it was just that one print. I ended up saying "to hell with it" because it projected so beautifully.

 |  IP: Logged

Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-04-2000 06:22 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Johnny Pytlak must have been experimenting with the chemical composition of the film stocks on certain prints back then. Maybe they were experimenting with their anti-stat coating? But yes, prints ran fine and had no other problems.

 |  IP: Logged

George Roher
Master Film Handler

Posts: 266
From: Washington DC
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 04-04-2000 10:09 PM      Profile for George Roher   Email George Roher   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've also had a print "cone up" on the take-up platter. This print was shedding very heavily too. It almost popped out the center ring when running soundtrack down. When I ran it soundtrack up, the center would lie flat on the platter (AW3) but the outer reels would be sticking up. I never understood this.

 |  IP: Logged

Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1714
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-04-2000 10:27 PM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I too had film "cone up" on my platter and this was the cause.

Speco platter #3 was a loose winding kind of platter and the projector in #3 was embossing the film because one of the pad rollers was too tight to the sprocket. When I moved the print to the platter in #5, also a Speco, but one that wound tight, the damaged film would "cone up."

I adjusted the pad roller and that was the end of that problem. How do you adjust the pad roller, you ask? You take two pieces of film and thread them over the sprocket like you would with one. Then you try to turn the pad roller. if it is too tight, you adjust the pad roller stop-screw. The pad roller should just be loose on two thicknesses of film, but tight on three thicknesses of film.

I hope this helps. I have Simplex machines, but I understand the theory works on all machines.

 |  IP: Logged

Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-04-2000 11:11 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually now that it has been mentioned, I do remember the film actually lifting the entire ring out of the center. We had to suction cup it down from the inside of the ring. And as heavy as those Christie rings are (and for some stupid reason they are damn heavy and bulky, for a ring) that is quite a feat. Why are Christie rings so bulky and heavy anyway? It doesn't make them any tougher. We had one snap in half on us just last week, just from lifting it out of the print!

When you are talking about film thicknesses, what kind of film are you talking about? Acetate? Polyester? Fuji or Kodak (Kodak is thicker). Lots of variables.

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-04-2000 11:19 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Basketball Diaries was Fuji. Isn't Romeo Must Die Miramax? They've been using Fuji lately too. Perhaps it's restricted only to the thinner Fuji print stock?

 |  IP: Logged

Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1714
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-04-2000 11:30 PM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Too much information, I think my head is going to explode!

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.