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Author Topic: surround EX Frank Rapisardi Film Handler Posts: 96 From: Methuen, MA, USA Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-25-2000 07:20 AM                     Is this really worth investing in or is it just another way to force us into spending vast sums of money.I haven't heard it yet.National Amusements uses it in their bigger houses.How will it work in a smaller house? Thanks Frank ------------------  |  IP: Logged Bryan Redemske Film Handler Posts: 70 From: Cedar Falls, IA, USA Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-25-2000 08:25 AM                     we have it in two of our auditoriums. to be honest, i didn't notice it that much during Star Wars Ep. I. only a couple of movies have been in EX since then, so i really don't think it's that big of a deal. maybe with the newer technologies coming around, it'll make a big difference, but....you could probably do without.  |  IP: Logged John Walsh Film God Posts: 2490 From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way Registered: Oct 1999 posted 04-25-2000 08:40 AM                     Personally, I think the money might be better spent somewhere else. How much do they cost, about $2500 or so? Adding in the labor to rewire the surround speakers, (depending on how they were done at first) and a new amplifier) two of them would almost be a DTS unit, which I would rather have. I guess if everything else is up-to-date in your theater, I'd say sure, but otherwise....  |  IP: Logged Aaron Mehocic Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 804 From: New Castle, PA, USA Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-25-2000 09:01 AM                     The ownership bought one about a year ago and I'm still unimpressed. We had some problems with ours concerning its boot-up capabilities as well. The manager would turn of the EX when the film running in that auditorium was not compatible with the unit (mostly everything), and when we turned it back on, it would not work. I need three new automation/dimmer systems, dry-web media cleaners, better quality 2k bulbs, and many other nessessities, but I got EX (wooooo!). I refused to work on the system because of my other needs, so the answers to many of our questions remain unanswered. AND IN THIS CASE I DON'T CARE! EX was just a rip off to get more people into see a mediocre science fiction picture. I got more important things to worry about. So do I think you need an EX unit? HELL NO!  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-25-2000 11:13 AM                     I think its pretty good if properly installed. I put two in a theater we did just in time for Toy Story. That soundtrack was very impressive to hear in standard SRD, but the addition of EX on that film did make a big difference. The nice thing is that now the Dolby SA-10 EX adaptor has auto sense for EX encoded films. I perfer to stay with only Dolby products on any installs I do for our customers. Their products do represent more value for the dollar than other products do and you have the benefit or real type A and SR noise reduction over some one elses make believe noise reduction. Having the correct noise reduction in your processor is more important than almost any other aspect it performs. I would say that 2500.00 extra would be the average to expect for EX at install. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-25-2000 05:15 PM                     My feeling is that Surround EX is probably the worst "bang for the buck" out there. One has to spend a substantial amount of money to get the adapter, amplifier channels and possibly speakers (the rear wall is often under speakered for EX since the rear wall must be able to to play 103dBc in the middle of the auditorium). Then there is the added labor of installing the system. All of this for what? One channel. A derrived channel at that. I'm also not to wowwed about the implementation of some unit (very poor logic interfaces). I view Surround-EX as the icing on the cake...just make sure you have a pretty good cake first. Steve ------------------ "Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 04-25-2000 06:38 PM                        The SA-10 now has auto-sense? How is this achieved? Does one need a newer SA-10? This was a serious flaw in the original unit.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-25-2000 06:47 PM                        Agreed to all the other comments here. There's nothing really "wrong" with EX when used with EX-encoded prints (how many films are mixed for EX now?), but $2500 (plus amps, plus wiring) is an awful lot of money to spend for something that doesn't make a huge difference in the overall presentation. If the rest of your sound system is composed of top-of-the-line everything, then go ahead and install EX. Otherwise, put the cash into better lenses, amps, speakers, etc. that will make a much bigger difference in presentation quality. Personally, I'll take a good, clean high-end mono system over a cheesy Dolby-clone (Kintek, etc.) system any day.  |  IP: Logged Ken Layton Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1452 From: Olympia, Wash. USA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 04-25-2000 07:52 PM                     Surround EX is a joke. You'd just be pissing away money that could certainly be used elsewhere for a better purpose.  |  IP: Logged Dwayne Caldwell Master Film Handler Posts: 323 From: Rockwall, TX, USA Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-25-2000 08:11 PM                     I don't know. There's something about having a channel of sound shot towards the back of your head that just doesn't seem like it'd be very effective. I could be wrong though. Maybe there's some other realm of physics I'm just not understanding here. ------------------ The man with the magic hands.  |  IP: Logged Dave Williams Wet nipple scene Posts: 1836 From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-26-2000 12:52 AM                        The real problem is that most auditoriums these days are NOT build for proper acoustics. So adding endless amounts of sound channels will do nothing but further distort what you hear. If the acoustics are crap, then fewer channels and speakers are better. In my DTS auditorium, it was designed for killer acoustics. When buzz lightyear flies by, you hear him move across the theater, and you cant tell just what speaker it came from. And we are just a simple SMART and DTS system. Building design is paramount! ------------------ "If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"  |  IP: Logged Greg Anderson Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 766 From: Ogden Valley, Utah Registered: Nov 1999 posted 04-26-2000 09:40 AM                        Dave... what's your theatre and which is your killer, DTS auditorium? I want to see movies there!  |  IP: Logged Dave Williams Wet nipple scene Posts: 1836 From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-26-2000 02:22 PM                        The one in reference to killer acoustics would be theater number 2 at the Starship theatres in Sandy, Utah. We mix the sound for EACH feature we get in there. Films like, The Matrix, The Crow (last saturday), even SWEP1 sounded like you were in the movie itself, and we never go over 85db. Its all how you equalize it baby! That and speaker placement in relation to building design and patron placement. Right now we are considering a remodel, as our lease is about up. If we renew we are going to remodel and probably make some slight alterations to the interiors. Place is like a war zone right now, just trying to make it alive with all the competition near by. ------------------ "If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-26-2000 02:25 PM                     Dave, Actually very good acoustics are quite easy to obtain in almost any auditorium if proper acoustical treatment is done when the place is built, or even added afterwards. Typically in a 300 or so seat room 2" on the side walls and 3 to 4" on the rear wall will allow a room to meet THX specs easily and usually surpass it. I've been through many projects that had acoustic treatment done either when building or added later. Many older theaters can meet standard sound decay and reverb specs for a given room with some added treatment, usually in the form of premade panels, on the side, and back walls. The harder area is HVAC noise. To meet even NC-30 is difficult thing for most HVAC contractors I've worked with. NC 20 to 25 is the preferred level. NC30 is just audible in a large room. If you can get to NC 20 you can hear the blood flowing in your ears! Thats quiet! Not many theaters can meet that low of a spec, only a few. The real art in designing an auditorium is correct placement, quantity, number of surround speakers, proper selection of stage speakers, and amplifier power. Also utilizing a full baffle or at least baffelettes for screen channels is also important. I've seen to many rooms that are underspeakered, under powered, and improperly wired. We are in the process of changing out 14 of 17 screens at a large theater here in SLC. In that theater, which is brand new, the HF horns are mounted 3 feet back from the screen suface. Man thats not even close! And they cannot be moved closer without major modifications. Realistically, they should be almost right up to the back of the screen. You can just imagine how much of the sound is reflected by the screen and is absorbed by the rear wall acoustical treatment in this place. Quite frankly there is no excuse for this sort of sloppy work in a new facility that has state of the art equipment. Anyway, sorry to write a book on this but it really isn't difficult at all. Mark P.S. Doing a B chain re-eq for each film is definately not the correct way to present a film. Eq'ing to proper ISO standards is the only way in this industry. If you don't go by standards then don't expect to be able to make an accurate judgement of a sound track! Its that cut and dry. However, if the mix down engineers for a given film happen by your theater they would be THE ONLY ones to consult on any eq changes. Other wise ISO curves should be strictly adhered to the same way they are in dubbing stages all over the world. Frankly, if a film has a bad track you can't make it good, and if a track is good it'll sound that way.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 04-26-2000 02:35 PM                        Toy Story 2 sounded awesome in EX because it had an awesome mix. That's some referrence sound material there. I like to use the opening sequence to audibly check how certain auditoriums sound. You should get earth-shaking sub, lots of left, center, and right action. And of course the surrounds sound great whether you are playing it in EX or not. I do notice during that opening sequence, once when buzz flies by, it sounds like maybe a little bit of static in the left surround channel, but it is just a really quick effect, since all auditoriums do it. It doesn't sound bad, but people like me who listen specifically for that type of stuff could be thrown off for a second. Overall, I like EX. Hell, it didn't come out of MY wallet! When you have it set up correctly, it sounds pretty good. It really does make a huge difference if it is set up correctly. Toy Story 2 is still the referrence EX movie, all others seem limp so far.  |  IP: Logged

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