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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » SURVEY-7 channel vs. 8 channel (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: SURVEY-7 channel vs. 8 channel
Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-03-2000 02:01 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok, if your theater could have ONE and NOT both of the following...

EX of some form (not necessarily Dolby's) providing a 3rd surround channel

*or*

8 channel (5 speakers behind the screen) of some form (not necessarily SDDS)

...which would it be?

Now in all fairness, it seems just about the same amount of movies are being mixed in EX vs. 8 channel (and for this survey let's pretend the numbers are identical), so that should not be a consideration of this survey. Also, regardless of the problems many people have with SDDS dropouts, the SDDS format should not be considered part of the survey either (if you are a fan of SDDS then fine, if not pretend for this survey that DTS or Dolby has an 8 channel digital playback system).

I'm curious as to whether most people would spend the extra bucks on...5 channels behind the screen with 2 surround channels or 3 channels behind the screen with 3 surround channels.


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-03-2000 02:04 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I guess I should go ahead and answer my own question here.

I vote for 7 channels. Yes, the EX channel is derived from a matrix, but I feel putting most of your channels up front isn't as effective as adding a 3rd channel around the other 3 walls of a theater. The steering of the sound "around" you is more important to me.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-03-2000 02:29 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I vote for EX as well. While not outstanding or anything like that, it definitely does make the left and right surround channels more discrete simply because they are not using the back surrounds as part of the left/right mix. I always felt that the back surrounds compromised the stereo separation. With EX, that is gone and it is its own "channel" now. It would be much cooler if it was discrete, but it's still pretty good when mixed properly.

Plus, it has more "wow" factor than 5 stage channels. If you tell an audience you have more surround channels now vs more screen channels, they are going to be more impressed with the idea of more surround channels. I have seen many 8 channel movies in 8 channel auditoriums and honestly could not discern much of a difference.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-03-2000 02:48 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad,
Realistically since all the great mix engineers are either retired or dead, and no one really knows how to properly mix for 5 frontal channels anymore(as Joe said there is very little difference and I agree)...and especially since dialog is rarely panned anymore I'd definately have to vote for EX with out a doubt. With the average size of a multiplex screen these days at around 30 feet give or take a few feet, packing 5 channels behind it would is a waste. In light of the few really good EX mixes that have been done the EX route would be my choice for sure.
Mark

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-03-2000 03:15 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd have to say that it depends on the size of the theatre.

For a smallish ( <30 feet wide) screen, I'd definitely go with an EX-type arrangement.

On the other hand, anything larger would benefit greatly from panned dialogue. As a viewer, I'd say that the effects of five screen channels add far more to the "moviegoing experience" than the extra surround channel. Besides, it's easy to add an EX-type matrix to a home video system (either using a "real" SA-10 or a home matrix system), but no home format currently supports five screen channels and probably none ever will.

Besides, I'm a sucker for the six-track 70mm mixes from the '50s and '60s. Any self-respecting theatre should have 70mm capability and should run 70mm films on occasion.

Lastly, if the screen has common-height masking, the LE and RE speakers can be used for the L and R channels for 1.66 and 1.85 films with 4- or 6-track mixes.

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George Roher
Master Film Handler

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From: Washington DC
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 05-03-2000 03:27 PM      Profile for George Roher   Email George Roher   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I vote for 5 screen channels.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 05-03-2000 06:54 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott,
I was thinking along the same lines for a long time, but there is really no one that can properly mix an 8 track show. The old folks that did all those glorious 70mm films are long gone and or retired now. I've heard some really good EX tracks and installations and its cheaper and more practical. I would vote for a 5 channel screen suystem in a very large place, but only then, and only for mag playback.
Mark

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Dwayne Caldwell
Master Film Handler

Posts: 323
From: Rockwall, TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 05-03-2000 07:12 PM      Profile for Dwayne Caldwell   Email Dwayne Caldwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd have to go with the seven channel. I can't tell much of a difference with five channel screen speakers either. And if the sound mixers no longer pan the dialogue, then what's the point of having two extra channels behind the screen? I figure having the surround options is important for those action movies that would use it, even though I haven't been able to discern much of a difference the EX channel makes. But then again, I haven't seen movies like Toy Story 2 that supposedly give EX a run for its money.

------------------
The man with the magic hands.

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John Walsh
Film God

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From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 05-03-2000 08:12 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
While price would be a factor, all things considered, I'd vote for the 7 channel. While more channels are good, there's a limit as to what is worthwhile. With screen sizes today, it would be hard to hear the difference between each speaker with 5 behind the screen. But you would probably hear Ls, Cs and Rs channels because they are seperated farther apart.

But I also agree with Scott. If the industry moves toward bigger screens again, 5 channels would be needed.

What if we EX the L and C, and the C and R, to create a Le and Re..... oh, never mind....

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-03-2000 08:23 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok...since I normally don't go with the flow of the people here...I don't see why I should start now!!! :-)

I emphatically vote for 8-channel. 3-screen channels suck and it is as simple as that...true I don't hear any inspired 5-screen channel mixes out there but then again I don't hear and inspired 3-screen channel ones either. Gee dialog out of center, music and effects out of left and right.

I would take 5-screen channels before I got the second surround. Then I would add 2 more front channels before the 3rd, 4th or 5th surround.

My idea on the sound spread is 7 screen channels (5 behind and one just outside to the left and right), then 5-surrounds...(2-channels on each side wall and one in the rear...allows the mixer to pull the sound back).

I think the basic problem with all of the multi-channel mixes is the time-frame allotted for them.

I've said it before and I will say it again...Surround-EX is the worst bang for the buck. It should only be considered if you have everything else you want sound wise and want to put the finishing touches on.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Stephen Jones
Master Film Handler

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From: Geelong Victoria Australia
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-03-2000 08:33 PM      Profile for Stephen Jones   Email Stephen Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I go for the 7 channel,for the same reasons as you mentioned Brad.We have 2 screens with E.X and I must say how effective it is when it is set up properly.Most of our patrons comment on how good the sound is with E.X.The rest of the screens have only Dolby digital and we hope to one day have E.X in those as well.So I think the money spent on E.X has been worth it.These days with the consumer buying surrround systems for their homes I belive that theatres must keep up with the latest in sound and picture technology after all the patrons are paying a lot of money in buying their tickets and they expect the best available.

------------------

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Brad Miller
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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-04-2000 02:21 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Well it's 6 for EX, 2 for 8 channel and one "depends". Anyone else?

Perhaps if we could just clone Gary Rydstrom, he could mix EVERY movie!!! (Damn that Toy Story 2 mix was good!)


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Gordon McLeod
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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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 - posted 05-04-2000 07:52 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
amazing steve and I agree on two things changeovers and 5 screen channels (just wish it did go hand in hand with SDDS)
I think every mixer should have to watch sound of music where the voices tracked every preformer discretely (not a panned mono track even)
If I can't have a discrete 5 screen channel system I would like a matrix that would fill in the void
Mark Up here the smallest screen hung last year was 58' wide

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Oscar Neundorfer
Master Film Handler

Posts: 275
From: Senoia, GA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 05-04-2000 08:28 AM      Profile for Oscar Neundorfer   Author's Homepage   Email Oscar Neundorfer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Gordon about the mix on The Sound Of Music. I was around 15 years old when it came out, and I saw it several times at Martin's Cinerama in Atlanta GA where,as I recall, there was an 80 feet wide screen.

I was amazed at the sound especially during the scene where the Von Trapp family was singing on stage. As the family members moved back and forth across the (80 feet wide) stage, the voices were perfectly panned with them, and the 5 full range stage channels greatly enhanced the sound presentation.

So, if done PROPERLY, using 5 full range channels, and with a big enough screen, 5 stage channels are great.

Unfortunately, very few if any films these days would benefit very much if at all, so I would opt for the ex format in most cases.


------------------
Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc.

oscar@smartdev.com

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-04-2000 08:36 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With the "all dialog in the center" mentality of today, the added surround channel is more likely to be noticed as an "improvement" by audiences. But like Gordon and Steve, I really miss the masterful use of 5 speakers behind the screen that seems to be a "lost art" today. Sitting 50 feet from a 60-foot wide screen, the "holes" in the soundfield are obvious. Even with smaller screens, it must be recognized that the audience sits closer, so the "holes" remain.

Seeing and hearing "Seven Wonders of the World" and "How the West Was Won" in 7 discrete channel Cinerama in Dayton OH last month made me realize how much we have lost, despite the latest in digital technology. That 7-track analog magnetic film played on 1950's equipment may have had some hum and noise, but the sound truly "brought you into the picture" and added a major creative tool.

The "ultimate" on my "wish list"? A great movie filmed using 65mm negative, with hundreds of 70mm DTS prints having 12 channels: L, LC, C, RC, R, 5 surrounds, 1 overhead, and 1 subwoofer. "Seat Shaker" optional.

Guess what? --- all the technology and equipment needed exists today! Which makes me both happy (that it could be used), and sad (that it isn't).

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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