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Topic: Idea for getting rid of reference frames

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-25-2000 05:47 PM

Brad indicated he had an idea to eliminate the need for reference frames. I have an idea too and am wondering if it's the same. Here's mine:

You've all seen the color-coded bands in the heads and tails of most prints, right? (Yellow for reel one, etc.) Would it be possible to print that same color down the whole reel, on the side opposite the soundtrack, in between the sprocket holes? There's no sound info here and since they're already printing SDDS on the edge, it would seem simple to put a color band there. That would eliminate all confusion AND the need for any ref frames.

Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 05-25-2000 07:05 PM

ahhh...the very cool DeLuxe COLOREEL® system... introduced in 1981 I believe with "Porky's" (at least thats the first print I had ever seen with it)...

Of course only DeLuxe uses this system now (its their trademark), and to print the corresponding color down one side would be a great idea, provided it doesnt interfere with any digital tracks Then there would be the problem of printing multiple colors over the duration of a reel (for a film 8 reels or longer as they use multi-color stripes for ID of those reels as opposed to the solid colors for reels 1-7)

its a good idea tho

Aaron

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 05-26-2000 01:52 AM

I'm still testing a few ideas here. Believe me, I am working on a possible solution. Whether it will fly or not will be seen here on the site in the next few weeks.

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 05-26-2000 06:01 AM

With the film "real estate" occupied by the Dolby Digital and SDDS soundtracks, the only place left for a color coding stripe would be between the perfs on the side opposite the Dolby Digital/analog soundtrack. In most cases, this would mean having to add an additional color-controllable light source to the printer to print in that area of the film. Right now, printers used for release printing already have separate light sources for the picture (additive color lamphouse), analog/DTS track, SDDS tracks, Dolby Digital track, and edgelights. So a new "color coding" light source would add to an already complicated situation for the labs.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Jason Burroughs
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Allen, TX
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-26-2000 02:07 PM

What about printing the reel number on the film itself , in much the same fasion that the CAP code #'s were printed? That would be a fairly easy system to iplement since the equipment already exists wouldn't it?

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-26-2000 02:37 PM

How nutty is this idea: print the reel number with fluorescent ink, using a rubber stamp or some similar process. I don't know if this would be visible on screen, but it could be easily checked with an ultraviolet light at the rewind bench...

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 05-26-2000 03:26 PM

Flat films could easily have the title and reel number stamped in between the frames in that wasted frame line. This probably would again be very costly, but hey it's another idea.

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-26-2000 05:33 PM

How about putting the reel number in between the sprocket holes on the non-Dolby side? That'd be easier than printing the colors and all labs could use it.

How come these film makers don't call on this forum for solving problems? Look at all the good ideas we've come up with for this one little problem!

John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-26-2000 06:24 PM

Hi Mike

I think John Pytlak's already addressed that one further back in the thread.

Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 05-26-2000 06:25 PM

Mike asked:
>How come these film makers don't call on this forum for solving problems?

Probably because they don't know that there is a problem. A lot of them are clueless about this end of things. And now with workstations there are a lot of editors who didn't come up through the ranks of assistants who physically handled the film for years.

When it was KEMs, Steenbecks and Moviolas they were all intimately aquainted with film and everything to do with it. When workstations first came along these folks learned to use them but brought their film knowledge with them. Now people are coming along who may be expert editors but know little or nothing about film and its (our!) requirements. These presumably are the ones who put dialog right up to the end of a reel, have scene changes after the cue, or even (as I once saw) a flashframe (gunshot or something) as the very last frame.

BTW, there are many good ideas here, any or all of which I would welcome.

Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 06-03-2000 05:38 PM

Does anyone else remember the prints from the early 1980's that had a brown edge on the soundtrack side. Many of those prints had footage marks on every reel. And every reel had a prefix letter. The footage count started at picture start of the leader. So reel #1 at picture start had "A0000" next to it. The first frame of picture was "A0012". Reel #2 started with "B0000". Reel #6 was "F0000".

That was heaven for finding ends of reels, especially when the last person to show the film just filled up the reels. Plus it was very easy to figure out how much footage was missing at a splice.

Ah, those were the days. If only that system could be modified and applied to current release prints.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 06-03-2000 08:40 PM

All the great ideas are foiled now by the SDDS system.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 06-05-2000 05:59 AM

Jeffry:
As you know, printing the edge numbers from the printing negative simply involves using the edgelight on the printer. The footage edge numbers you fondly remember were ink printed onto the edge of the duplicate negative, and then printed onto the release print with the printer edgelight. Today, even the ink printing of the negative would be unnecessary, as Kodak routinely prints KEYKODE numbers on the 2244 color intermediate film used for duplicate negatives, so each foot has a unique sequential number. But, as Brad notes, the area that was used for edge identification is now used for digital sound, and "overprinting" edge identification could be problematic.

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 06-05-2000 06:10 AM

If Sony would simply wake up and go from SDDS to SDTS, a whole lotta problems would disappear overnight.

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"I heard a voice behind me say...'Reach for it, Mister'... I spun around...found myself face to face...with a six year old kid! Well I just threw my guns down, walked away... LITTLE BASTARD SHOT ME IN THE ASS!"

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