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Author Topic: What is a Schneider 'Cinevar'?
Michael Barry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 584
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 08-15-2000 10:30 AM      Profile for Michael Barry   Email Michael Barry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At a new theatre I just started working at, I noticed that the projection lenses used to create a 1.85:1 screen image have Cinevar attachments on the front of them. The prime lenses themselves are Schneider 65mm lenses.

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John Walsh
Film God

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From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
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 - posted 08-15-2000 11:11 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I did a web search for "Cinevar" but didn't find anything. I'm guessing its a sort of "zoom" adapter to change that 65mm lens to 67mm, 58mm, or some other small amount (usually, lenses from about 50mm to 150mm are only made in 5mm steps.) Note that just because it is screwed on the front of a Schneider lens does not mean it was made by them. It's not uncommon to mix two different manufacturers lenses (prime and anamorphic, for example.)

Here is Schneider's "zoom" lens product to give you and idea of what I *think* a Cinevar is.
http://www.schneideroptics.com/projection/con/con.htm

The generic name for these kind of adapters is; "Magacom(s)." The word was actually owned by Kollmorgan (a company that used to make projection lenses 30+ years ago.) But it's been in use so long, everybody uses it interchangably with current manufacturers.

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Michael Barry
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
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 - posted 08-15-2000 12:05 PM      Profile for Michael Barry   Email Michael Barry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Cinevar attachments are marked Schneider, as well as the prime lenses. I will double check next time, though...


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

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From: Music City
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 - posted 08-15-2000 12:18 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Schneider does make a small zoom convertor that goes on the front of a prime lens. This allows one to create a needed focal length that is not manufactured. These are relatively small, but expensive adaptors not at all like a magnacom. That is probably what you are refering to here.
Mark

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John Walsh
Film God

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From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
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 - posted 08-15-2000 08:05 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tried again to find references to "Cinevar" but couldn't. They have the Schneider name on them? Can't find anything like that at their site. Maybe Schneider only marks them that way for the Australia market? Are they that same gold color, or are they older?

I looked at the ISCO site, and found this unrelated but interesting thing:

ISCORAMA is an exclusive development of ISCO-OPTIC, Germany, for widescreen taking and projecting. Similar to Cinemascope, integrated anamorphoic lenses or anamorphtic attachments compress the image by the factor 1.5 in horizontal direction during the process of taking the picture.
ISCORAMA can be mounted to all common 35mm SLR cameras. Together with the ISCORAMA integrated anamorphoic projection lenses the image will be de-squeezed again. As a result of this, the user faces an attractive widescreen image with an aspect ratio of 1:2.25.

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John Pytlak
Film God

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From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
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 - posted 08-16-2000 06:00 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John:

As I noted in another post, Glenn Berggren demonstrated a 1.5X squeeze anamorphic lens called "IscoVision" in 1984. It basically used the ISCORAMA optics developed by IscoOptic.

Using a 1.50X anamorphic lens with the present 0.825 x 0.690 inch "scope" image area gives an aspect ratio of 1.79:1, which is very close to today's 1.85:1 aspect ratio, and a near perfect match to the 16:9 aspect ratio of HDTV. By using a larger image area on the film, grain and sharpness are improved, and you get 1.5X more light on the screen than current "flat" 1.85:1, by simply changing the lens. For example, a theatre struggling to get 11 footlamberts for 1.85:1 would get 16 footlamberts by using the scope aperture and the new 1.5X anamorphic lens.

It was a great idea, and still is! That's why I am making a presentation and showing a demonstration at the SMPTE Technical Conference in Pasadena this October, showing how it could easily be done using today's technology, including Super-35 production with new 1.5X anamorphic printing and projection lenses. Doing the 1.5X squeeze on an optical printer when making the duplicate negative has the additional advantage of "forcing" a pin registered printing step, which should greatly improve steadiness and sharpness, since it eliminates the printer "slip" issues associated with contact printing short pitch master positives to short pitch duplicate negatives.

But convincing cash-starved theatre owners to buy new 1.5X anamorphic lenses costing a couple thousand dollars will be a challenge, even with advantages clearly seen on the screen by almost anyone.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com


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Michael Barry
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
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 - posted 08-16-2000 09:26 AM      Profile for Michael Barry   Email Michael Barry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John P: I'm now working in a theatre with screen sizes that really challenge the limits of correct screen illumination when using 35MM film...truly, 70MM is needed to really get the job done perfectly but in the absence of that, ISCOVISION would go a long way towards squeezing every last bit of light through a 35MM film frame...steadiness would see a marked improvement, too, no doubt, and I like the idea of one aperture plate

John Walsh: They are the same gold color. I will double check next time I'm in and mention it here...just promise not to be too upset if I have sent you on an altavista goose chase


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John Walsh
Film God

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 - posted 08-16-2000 12:14 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael: I don't mind finding stuff. It's kinda fun. When I first started learning about projection, a person was really at the mercy of whoever was training them to provide information. If they didn't know, neither did you. It's so easy now with the internet; it's no trouble.

Mark is probably right; it's probably one of those smaller magnifiers.

John P: I knew about Iscovision for motion pictures, but never knew they developed adapters for 35mm slide application.

Not to be a crank, but I kinda feel that Iscovision is like ISDN; too little, too late. The results are of course better, but not enough to spend the money on. In addition to the cost of lenses and labor (not much, I know), what will theater owners (employing less experienced projection staff) do with lens turrets that only accept two lenses? Would the studios be willing to help with the cost of outfitting the theaters with e-projection looming?

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John Pytlak
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 - posted 08-16-2000 01:17 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Walsh said:

"Not to be a crank, but I kinda feel that Iscovision is like ISDN; too little, too late. The results are of course better, but not enough to spend the money on. In addition to the cost of lenses and labor (not much, I know), what will theater owners (employing less experienced projection staff) do with lens turrets that only accept two lenses? Would the studios be willing to help with the cost of outfitting the theaters with e-projection looming?"

I hope you're wrong. IscoVision was ready in 1984, everyone agreed the improvement was significant, but no one wanted to spend the money needed to improve quality. Today, screens are even larger (and dimmer). I hope theatre owners can see the logic of buying a new lens that gives them 1.5X more light on the screen with their current lamphouse. Doing the same thing with a lamp might mean going from a 4000 to a 5000 watt lamp, with its increased purchase and operating cost, and increased risk of film heat damage and focus flutter. For underlit screens that already are at the limit of 6000 or 7000 watt lamps, the format is about the only easy way to get more light.

As far as the lens turret and automation, the new format would eventually replace the "flat" 1.85:1 format, so there would still be only two widely used formats (Scope 2X 2.39:1, and Scope 1.5X 1.79:1).

Something is wrong with this picture : Theatre executives willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars per screen to install Digital Cinema, when a $2,000 lens will give them a much better picture that is 50% brighter.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com


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John Walsh
Film God

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 - posted 08-16-2000 07:11 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, JP, I'd be happy for almost anything at this point. If even one studio makes one regular, mainstream feature avaiable in Iscovision, I would ask/annoy/heckle our theater owners to outfit at least a few screens for it. I'd even offer to install it where I work for free. It's really not that much work, but anything I can do to get *somthing* going.....

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Tim Killen
Film Handler

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From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-16-2000 09:36 PM      Profile for Tim Killen   Email Tim Killen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael,

The Schnieder zooms that people are refering to are CINE XENON CONVERTERS which can adjust focal length up to approx 3.5mm from its original focal length. What you are describing though is the CINEVAR lens from Schnieder which acts the same as a Magnacom that you can get from other lens suppliers. Basically, if you use a single lens for your primary or backing lens, then in most instance its focal length is set for Cinemascope and because its focal legth will be higher than a Widescreen the Cinevar lens will reduce that focal length back down suitable for W/S presentation.

These are not ideal situations as stated by Brad in an earlier thread as these types of lens will reduce focal properties and light output.

Hopes this helps your question

Tim Killen

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Michael Barry
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
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 - posted 08-16-2000 11:01 PM      Profile for Michael Barry   Email Michael Barry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim: Thanks for that. I've seen an installation in which there was one backing lens not attached to the turret which would remain in place at all times, with an anamorphic lens in one turret mount and what would logically have been an attachment to reduce the focal length of the prime in the other.

What's wierd about this current installation is that it uses two completely separate turrets with no immovable lens. That is, both turrets are fitted with backing lenses...one has the cinevar, the other has the 2X anamorphic. As noted the focal length for 1.85:1 is 65MM - I should take note of the focal length of the other backing lens.

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Tim Killen
Film Handler

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From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-17-2000 02:35 AM      Profile for Tim Killen   Email Tim Killen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael,

This seems a very illogical way of going about things, as stated by using a Cinevar lens it reduces focal properties and light output. Check your scope lens and you should find that the backing lens is also 65mm if this is the case you should be able to use a 32.5mm lens for W/S without the Cinevar and this should produce a much sharper picture.

Hope this helps

Tim Killen

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Tim Killen
Film Handler

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From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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 - posted 08-17-2000 03:37 AM      Profile for Tim Killen   Email Tim Killen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just A quick correction it would require between 37.5 & 42.5

Tim Killen

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David Kilderry
Master Film Handler

Posts: 355
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 08-17-2000 05:07 AM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage   Email David Kilderry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael,

Tim knows all about the various Schneider adapters and lenses, I worked with him on a few lens issues this week!

Let me know what projectors the lenses are on and what turret set-up is utilised. As Tim states the Bauer U3 and U4 utilized a fixed prime backing lens with a two lens auto turret containing an anamorphic and a modern day Schneider version of a Magnacom (an adjustable focal length converter). A similar system is used on other projectors like Century "A" models but with a slide-type automatic lens system in front of a backing lens.

David

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