The situation at present seems to be that labs are still printing silver tracks. The only high magenta tracks I've had so far have been from the Paris lab LTC, which seems to have gone over entirely (I haven't had an LTC print with a silver track since April). I've never, so far, received a print with a cyan track.

Does anyone know the conversion is taking longer than expected? Is the US further ahead than we are? And if the whole process has been delayed, is the reason the one I have long suspected, namely that cinemas are simply refusing to invest in LED readers and so the distributors, despite having issued 'convert or else' warnings for the last year or two, are not willing to risk the chaos that would result in phasing out silver prints against the exhibitors' will?

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There is supposed to be limited testing of cyan tracks in early 2001 but on a VERY controlled basis. Even that isn't definate. There has also been a report of a possible studio support of a wider release.

There is NO drop-dead date on cyan tracks and in fact they may NEVER happen and are measurably and audibly inferior to their redeveloped counterparts.

High-magenta tracks on the other hand are in wide use. They do degrade both exciter lamp based and infrared based readers down to the visable red reader level. Thats right, it isn't that the red led does so well with the high-magenta when compared to the other forms, it just helps red readers compete on noise and distortion. You gotta admire people that push a system that degrades performance. I was working a premier with Artisan pictures and they informed me that they don't like the response of the high-magenta tracks and had their prints restruck with conventional tracks (this was sometime in early August of 2000, I forget the title).

Steve

-What about our common child of heart, 70mm ?
I sure did find it difficult, having to explain to people, that 3 front chanels - with dialogue from center only - should be better than 5 discrete ch's up there.
-goes for Dolby 70mm in common - Lawrence and other (othervise distinguised) restored versions in specific. -Opinions, please...

All this red light business - what is Your experience with old-old (b&w) prints on these readers...?

Per Hauberg

As far as old track playback stands there are several that the RED LED will not satisfactorally play back. Certain unilateral tracks, certain variable density tracks will not playback or only marginally. There is a simple way to overcome that problem. That is by illuminating the sound track with a high intensity incandescent halogen lamp and having a RED dichroic filter that can be moved in or out of the sound track illuminating beam. This easily eliminates the RED LED problems. Also switching built into the preamp to make the source look mono is important for proper playback of these old tracks.

As far as 70mm tracks go and the restored films stand. In my opinion a film should never be changed from its original format except as when done by the dorector as in the case of LOA. Its that simple. As nice as panned dialog is it would simply present too many problems in cinemas today if done on a huge scale.
Mark

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As far as old track playback stands there are several that the RED LED will not satisfactorally play back. Certain unilateral tracks, certain variable density tracks will not playback or only marginally. There is a simple way to overcome that problem. That is by illuminating the sound track with a high intensity incandescent halogen lamp and having a RED dichroic filter that can be moved in or out of the sound track illuminating beam. This easily eliminates the RED LED problems. Also switching built into the preamp to make the source look mono is important for proper playback of these old tracks.

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How about a penthouse Red LED reader feeding a delay, for rep houses?

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Per: I don't think anyone on this forum will deny 70mm's virtues and I'm sure there are several threads that speak about it so I don't want to repeat all of that stuff here.

As to the older films and B/W tracks. The red reader is inferior to the white light based systems. The red light system (as it stands now) is also somewhat noiser, especially with scuffed tracks. In Archival houses, we are not switching them to red readers as of yet. In those houses that do run older/archival films that have been switched to red (LED) based readers because of digital sound or projector upgrade, we have been burned, or should I say, the audience has been burned in every case by either near non readability or nasty scratching noises (scuffed track).

Mark:

I wouldn't wan't to be the dealer that scares his customers over, for what now appears to be, a bunch of agenda ridden hooey. Have you had to change out any of the LEDs yet? Wait for the happy face when they find out the price for those little jewels (installed). The type of change you are talking about hasn't and isn't going to happen on an overnight basis, unless the EPA sets a date. Not only haven't they set any date, they haven't even got this issue on the plate yet, and no indication that it is eminant. Telling someone to buy a red reader right now, or else, is simply a scare tactic by the folks with the agenda and the money to make.

Now if, on the otherhand, that red reader is coming along for the ride on a reverse scan reader, ok then. The gain in pickup quality (improved frequency response, separation, dolby tracking...etc) out weighs the noise, even in my opinion. Of course, an IR LED will also work with reverse scan and have better quality than the red LED will. A white light source with a reverse scan will have the best yet if non-collimated. I am merely referring to getting a red reader of any type at any cost to beat a phantom date.

When we get the red light source to the point where light scratches and scuffs don't scratch up the sound would lets talk about conversion to cyan...AFTER sufficient testing to show all of it's problems that will need to be dealt with....please no more polyester suprises.

As it has been explained to me by those that have looked into filtering white light for a red light, it doesn't work. Jack Cashin could explain better because he has tried it. As a joke at ShowEast, I brought in a typical GE (crappy) exciter lamp that I quickly colored Red with a Marks-A-Lot...scared a couple of the red light vendors, mostly got laughs though...Jack liked it!

John Eickhof:

I am a member of the SMPTE and on the P-3 committee and I started to take Mr. Allen to task over the cyan track agenda, to which Eastman Kodak is part. The information by Kodak on the cyan track is propoganda laiden and keeps changing, first it was 80% conversion to red light before pushing for cyan now it is 60% (it appears that they didn't get their mark) plus if you read carefully, the bolster cyan's merits but shy away from it's problems and cloud it with misinformation such as the high-magenta track making the red reader superior to other types (it still isn't). As to the government's actions to eliminate the silver...what action? If there was, it would be a rather cut and dried issue...the EPA would say you must stop making redeveloped optical tracks by such and such a date, and everybody converts by then...simple (use Freon as an example) but when I querried Mr. Allen about this possibility, the EPA hasn't even got the redeveloped track in their sights yet! So your statement of "cyan tracks WILL be here very soon!" can't really be backed up by fact. Just opinion and guessing.

William Hooper:

You actually pose a very interesting proposition and one that might be interesting to pursue. The quality of digital delays can be quite good. Kinoton is using one for their 16mm sound on their FP-38 series of projectors and it is some of the best 16mm sound I have ever heard.

Another problem that Mr. Allen presented while discussing the red readers is that our once standard sound offset seems to be wandering...Look at your typical basement reader system, if you have digital, the optical pick up has probably been moved to increase the delay to the point of possibly being objectionable, depending on your projector and reader manufacturer plus your auditorium length.

Stefan Scholz:

I personally have had miserable results with the laser scanners as used on the Ernaman. Some have noted high failure rate (I must admit, I have already replaced one unit that was less than a month old) but I have found them to have a horible response, poor light uniformity and lead to poor 2:4 mistracking. I have not tried them on old/scuffed films so I can't comment on their response there.

If you look at the companies behind the cyan track thing, you will find that there is big money to be made by it. Mr. Allen of Dolby labs just happens to be the biggest supplier of these little LEDs for the world...they would have a better lock than GE did on exciter lamps. Obviously USL is pushing cyan tracks since they have the relatively cheap Jaxlight, Folks from Kelmar and Component Engineering are OEM suppliers for new projectors and retrofits for many others. What's left are the laser light people (a comparatively small number). When you read the propoganda about the cyan tracks look at the sources and realize they have a lot to gain financially.

Who really gains by cyan tracks other than those listed above? Certainly the labs who can skip steps associated with redevelopment. Film manufacturers that would like to see their product remain as inexpensive to deal with as possible to prolong it's useful life as movie media. The silver in the release prints do make for a disposal problem. But here is the problem, the people that gain (financially), are not the ones expected to do the paying. How much do the labs and studios think they will save by eliminating the silver tracks before any legislation? If it is a lot, then, in the same vane as with our public schools, lets have the labs and film manufacturers pool together and come up with a voucher system (sorry, it's an election year) to get all of the exhibitors to get their red light sources...there are now several,comparatively, low-cost systems out there (Jaxlight, BACP's reader, CE's new 40 series readers and I'm sure there are others) all knocking in the same price range (heck Dolby gets a cut in 2 out of 3 of those). The labs/film manufacturers get a one-time pain and everyone wins after that, except the paytrons, of course, they still get a noiser sound track than they might have otherwise had;-) Oh, and I am sure with these BIG cost savings by the labs, we can expect to see release print prices to come way-way down! (I'm sure the exhibitors can count the savings now!);-) Then again, the exhibitors will probably just get to keep paying and paying.

I say, continue developing the cyan track as a precautionary move, keep improving the LEDs and other red light sources as well as improving the lensing used (new faster lenses reduce the light needed and lengthen the LED's life and are being implemented by several of the manufacturers). This is simply NOT the time to force the issue. The red light is too young and the cyan track is still not sufficently tested. I have been in converstation with one of the studios already and they are not behind the cyan track, at the moment.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

When I say RED LED Scanner I mean LED reverse scanner. Anything else is a waste of money. IMHO the inferior JAX lights and Laserlights don't even enter into the picture of things. They are a very poor alternative. With the new C.E. scanner kits out the JAX light makes absolutely no sense at all, even form a cost standpoint. We'll have to wait and see how the new Swiss laser scanner does before I can pass any judgement. It may well be the best available.

Mark@GTS
P.S. The RED LED's alone generally sell for around 150.00 retail for those that do not know.