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Author Topic: Conversion from Arc Lamps to Xenon
Randy Loy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 156

Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-28-2000 05:25 AM      Profile for Randy Loy   Email Randy Loy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One of the performing arts centers I'm affiliated with is considering converting from carbon arc to xenon in the booth. I sort of hate to see the arc lamps go because I enjoy working with them but I also realize how practical xenon lamps are in modern motion picture exhibition.

Does anybody know what the xenon equivalent for an Ashcraft arc lamp (8mm positives, 7mm negatives at 60 amps) would be? We have access to some good used xenon lamp houses but I'm not sure exactly how many watts we need. Our screen is 34 by 17 and our throw is about 100 feet.

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Carl King
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 199
From: Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 10-28-2000 09:40 AM      Profile for Carl King   Email Carl King   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know what the equivelant to arc lamps would be but I believe that it does not apply here. The important info is the throw and the size screen. Without having a proper calculating device with me I can't say for sure but I would guess with a 100' throw and that size screen you would need a lamp of more than 200W. Three of my houses have 53' throws and I use 200W lamps in them with good results. Your longer throw would require more light of course.

Maybe a good service tech will see your question and answer it properly for you.

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Carl King
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 199
From: Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 10-28-2000 09:41 AM      Profile for Carl King   Email Carl King   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
sorry. the wattage should read 2000W not 200W.


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-28-2000 09:59 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But the throw distance isn't the determining factor for lamp size--the screen size is far more important. For a screen just over 30 feet, you probably could get away with 2k lamps, but 3k lamps would probably be preferable. You'll want to have a tech come out and do measurements, though.

I would make the point, though, that if you are only running films occasionally you will probably save money by keeping the arc lamps, as long as they are in good shape. The cost of buying xenon lamphouses (even used ones) and havign them installed, along with the cost of a set of lamps, will probably be far more than the cost of a couple years' worth of carbons. If you're running five shows a day, though, xenons will make far more sense, of course...

I agree that carbons make no sense in a new installation, but if you already have the lamps installed and they seem to work fine, why bother changing? There's nothing worse than a theatre that is getting good illumination with carbon and then installs underpowered xenon lamps, causing brightness to drop from "acceptible" to "nonexistant."

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-28-2000 10:13 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd say either 2,000W or 2,500 W, depending on your screen. I was running 2,000W on a 12' X 28' specular screen and that was great. Then we bought a new screen. It was 13' X 31' and it was only a 1.5 gain. There was quite a difference. I would have liked to have had a 2,500W.

If you get a 2,500 W you can always turn the power down a bit but you can't turn the power UP if you get a 2,000W then find out it's too dim!

Also, don't forget what the auditorium is like. Is it good and dark in there when the movie runs? If not you might need a little more power. Stray light can be a killer.

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 10-28-2000 10:33 AM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott's right. If they only plan on occassional films, they are better off to keep the carbon arc.

If they convert to xenon you have to factor in the cost of the lamphouses, power supplies, new bulbs, cost of electrician for wiring in the new power supplies (especially if 3 phase), etc.

For that size of screen and throw a minimum of 2000 watts is needed, but a 3000 is prefered. Usually a 3000 watt power supply is 3 phase. What are these used lamphouses you have a lead on? If they are the old Christies with the deep dish reflector you would actually be getting LESS light than sticking with carbon arc.

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Randy Loy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 156

Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-28-2000 10:51 AM      Profile for Randy Loy   Email Randy Loy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hmmm...Scott and Ken have me thinking that maybe we should stick with what we've got...

Scott hit the nail right on the head when he mentioned only doing a few films per year. The theatre does mostly live stuff these days and films aren't as frequent as I'd like. I'm trying to change that though.

In answer to Ken's question about the lamp house types that we have a line on, we know where there are a set of 3,000 watt Xenex lamps and a set of 1,500 watt Strong lamps. (rectifiers available for both). I figured the 1,500 watters were too small for the application but bet the 3,000's would work.

My only hesitation about hanging onto the arc lamps is a concern about continued availability of carbons. If it looks like we can still get them, even if a bit pricey, I wouldn't mind sticking with carbon arc. I just love the sound of the lamp running when I throw the knife switch and the "poof" when I stike the arc!


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Randy Loy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 156

Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-28-2000 11:10 AM      Profile for Randy Loy   Email Randy Loy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My mistake! The Strong lamps are SIXTEEN hundred watts, not fifteen.

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 10-28-2000 11:16 AM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Strong 1600 watt is too small.

You should not have any problem getting carbons. They are still widely available and you should be able to find the longer ones that will burn for an hour so you could use 6000 foot reels with only one changeover.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-28-2000 01:04 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually carbons are starting to get difficult to get as national only does periodic runs
The 3Kw Xenex will do the job very well

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-28-2000 06:06 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Do you find that you have a lot of particulate matter (low flying clouds/fog/heavy smoking)in your air? If not, throw has next to 0 effect on lamp size required (as others have now pointed out).

With a 34' wide screen, you are going to want about 3000 watts. Try and avoid 2500 watts since they are often the xenon lamp manufacturer's worst lamp in the cost/hour range...normally a 3000 can be run like a 2500 without any difficulty in any event.

I would tend to agree with others that you should look at the total cost of going over to xenon and add up how many carbons you could get for that much (also factor in lamphouse parts and possible part failures to which no replacement parts are available). I wouldn't convert to xenon just because it is trendy.

You will have to determine if converting is cost effective.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-28-2000 07:44 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually throw does matter only when it get to useing the extreme ends of the lens focal length range. Not a big difference in the middle range

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-28-2000 09:24 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All right smartty-paints... (that would be Gordon)...then let him use 101.6mm (4") lenses....there you can have a less efficent f/1.7 which should yeild about as much light as a modern f/2.0-f/2.4 :-)

In all seriousness...the B&L Super-Cinephores (Silver and Red) in the 4" dia. were excellent lenes...they were even coated.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Randy Loy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 156

Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-29-2000 06:43 AM      Profile for Randy Loy   Email Randy Loy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've really enjoyed this discussion and you've all made some really good points.

I talked with our 86 year old Chief Projectionist last night (he's been running film at the theatre since 1932) and we agreed that we will stay with carbon arc as long as we can. He's actually the one that posed the question about switching to xenon so he's certainly not afraid of change (actually our 16mm machine has a 1,000 watt Xetron xenon lamp). However, we both agree about weighing the costs of going to xenon with the two 35mm machines against the number of films we run each year.

Also, he mentioned something that made me smile when he equated the conversion from carbon arc to xenon to the conversion from steam locomtives to diesels. The diesel is cetainly the modern efficient way to go but the old locomotives hold all the romance of the glory days of railroading. We're sticking with our arc lamps as long as they remain practical!

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Carl King
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 199
From: Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 10-29-2000 07:45 AM      Profile for Carl King   Email Carl King   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, my mistake, sort of. I said that the throw was important and I got an e-mail from David Johnson correcting me. As an operator, not a tech, I do not have to calculate this kind of thing. I was thinking of the large single screen house that I used to work in that had a 120' throw and comparing it to the 50' range that I use now.

In the case we are discussing, Scott may be correct in thinking that this booth may want to keep the carbon arcs. The conversion cost could be high for just an occasional showing.


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