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Topic: Nitrate Fire Videos

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 12-13-2000 11:22 AM

Thanks to Rick Shamel and Brad for posting Rick's three short videos of nitrate film burning in the "Videos" section of Film-Tech. Watching how quicky nitrate burns (even underwater!) and the poisonous fumes it gives off, should give anyone pause about storing any quantity of nitrate film in an occupied building.

"Nitrate won't wait".
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/storage3.shtml#nitratea

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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John Keegan
Film Handler

Posts: 26
From: Trevose, Pa Near Northeast Philadelphia USA.
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 12-13-2000 11:52 AM

This particular subject has always kept my interest and seeing the videos reminded me just how volitile the film is, but I have to wonder, just how can nitrate film burn under water. Is it the chemical reaction? Sorry for the silly question, but I was just wondering.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 12-13-2000 11:58 AM

Cellulose nitrate is self-oxidizing --- the molecules contain oxygen which is liberated by the heat of combustion. Once the fire starts, you cannot stop it by simply excluding oxygen. (Kinda like the fuel on the solid fuel rocket boosters used on the Space Shuttle -- once they're lit, there's no stopping them):
http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/images/pao/STS51L/10062381.jpg

Other names for cellulose nitrate are "gun cotton" or "celluloid":
http://npcm.plastics.com/slimystuff7-99.html

The deadly fumes can be much more lethal than the flames, as evidenced in the tragic nitrate x-ray film fire at the Cleveland Clinic in 1929:
http://www.ccf.org/act/frames/chp3/chp3_1.htm

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Rachel Carter
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 248
From: Gloucester, Massachusetts, USA
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 12-13-2000 12:30 PM

Thanks for posting those video's, I've never seen nitrate film burn and after seeing those video's I'm glad I never will

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 12-13-2000 01:22 PM

I've never seen a purple cow.
I never hope to see one.
I can tell you surely, now,
I'd rather SEE than BE one!
*******************************
I've never seen a "nitrate" fire...
...Um, I think you know how the rest goes.

Now that I've seen the purple cow I know that I'd MUCH rather SEE than BE!

Very cool videos, Rick!

(Okay, that was a silly kids poem. I know. But if I just wrote, "Now, I've seen the purple cow!" You'd all say, "What???")

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 12-18-2000 08:17 PM

Further to John P's explanation of how nitrate burns under water, the British Navy made a training film in 1942 called 'This Film is Dangerous'. It was intended to train Navy intelligence personnel and newsreel cameramen who used 35mm camera negative stock on ships in how to handle the stuff safely, and consists mainly of scenes in which an extremely scared naval rating sets light to 2,000 foot reels of nitrate release print.

In one scene, a reel of film is placed in a steel drum filled with water with a few feet hanging over the side. This end is lit, and a couple of seconds later, dense black smoke can be seen issuing from the top of the drum.

Incidentally, 'This Film is Dangerous' is compulsory viewing as part of the induction programme for all new staff at the British National Film and Television Archive...

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System Notices
Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi

Posts: 215

Registered: Apr 2004

posted 07-08-2007 05:08 PM

It has been 2392 days since the last post.

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Ben Wales
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 602
From: Southampton. England
Registered: Jul 99

posted 07-08-2007 05:08 PM

quote:
Incidentally, 'This Film is Dangerous' is compulsory viewing as part of the induction programme for all new staff at the British National Film and Television Archive...

Leo: Can you get this Film on Video/DVD now and where from?

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 07-09-2007 08:44 AM

We have several old reports (with pictures) of testing nitrate film cabinets. Some of the pages that went with this particular report are missing, but it looks like it was done in 1936.

Apparently Kodak was very involved with the testing. The report lists about 20 people who were witness' and most of them are from Kodak. Maybe John P. knows a few...

Allen L. Cobb - Supervisor for Fire Safety
Richard Brady - MP Film Services, NY
D.E. Hyndman - MP Film Services, NY
S.A. Brady - Kodak Office
R.M. Corbin - Kodak Office
F.B. Dugan - Kodak Office
E.S. Farrow - Kodak Office
C.W. Burly - Kodak Park
G.T. Lane - Kodak Park

I always liked this picture... because this guy was probably the lowest-level tech, and had to be the one to step into the smouldering ashes to hold up the case for the camera .. looks a bit concerned about a flare-up, maybe? [Eek!]

We also have 15min or so long film of a cabinet full of nitrate being lit on fire. I would like to get it on to a DVD or something, but (no surprise) the film itself is nitrate; I donn't know where to get it transfered.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 07-09-2007 11:37 AM

I have seen a bad 16mm color film of an underground bunker full of nitrate film lit off, fired, and "out" in 30 seconds or so. It even shows the guy liting the fuse and running!. It looked like a rocket motor test!! THAT is the one I'd like to see again!! Louis

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-09-2007 03:14 PM

Naw... I want to see Brad's AW-3 with the Nitrate Feature Film go up... and what happens to the decks.... [evil]

.

Mark

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 07-09-2007 06:58 PM

ROFL .. that's a good one, Mark

(Ain't it fun to be mean and nasty when you get the age on you and get away with it?)

With all of the bauxite that is those aluminum decks, it will burn a very pretty light blue flame.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-09-2007 08:40 PM

John, if you can find a place to get it transferred, I will be happy to host the video files. If you can't find a place, we can just transfer it at one of Mark's theaters. [evil]

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 07-10-2007 03:03 AM

quote: Ben Wales
Leo: Can you get this Film on Video/DVD now and where from?

The Imperial War Museum preserves it, but AFAIK they haven't issued it on any of their commercial DVDs. But I need to speak to someone there in the next few days, and will ask, just in case they've put it (or have plans to) on one of their official film compilation DVDs.

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James Robertson
Film Handler

Posts: 40
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: May 2001

posted 07-10-2007 06:23 AM

Even more fun if it goes up during a show as happened to me when I were a lad. Certainly got my attention.

Jim

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