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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » 16mm Projector Review (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: 16mm Projector Review
Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 04-15-2001 11:13 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here are my thoughts on 16mm
The Eiki you reviewed is notorious at haveing problems with shrunken film as weel
The change over issue is also common with the Elmo change over unit (maybe the same engineer designed it)
The Elmo has superior optical sound playback
The next model up of the Eiki has a Geneva Movement and I have yet to play with one
The FP16 has one of the best stable images but the design of the stabalizer in the soundhead leaves a lot to be desired.
The Hortson (normandie and type G) are reliable workhorses but can have a very unstable picture if the dots on the intermitent sprocket are not lined up when installing the sprocket. lso excitor lamps are getting very hard to get for these machines
The Zies/Prevost Favorite 16B is an amazing machine with a rock steady image (geneva movement) and a watercooled gate ( handy with big lamphouses,but like hortson moves the apperture plate up and down to do frameing that requires typeing the machine at the same time
Also the soundhead can preform admirably (when one can get the felt clutch adjusted correctly -very rare occasion that happens) the rest of the time it can be very fluttery. One big plus is a slide in apperture plate and a two lens turret.
Fumeo makes a good claw machine that is very tollerant of damage film but the claw seems to have a usefull life of about 500 hours before needing replacement. Also their electronic control system is very prone to failure

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999

- posted 04-15-2001 01:14 PM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The EX-6000 is a better machine. It has a rotary switch for most functions and when you hit the changeover button it goes right now.

Does the 6100 leak oil directly onto the amplifier just like the 6000 does?

The thing I don't like about the pedestal Eiki machines is that they don't have a regular lamphouse table. You can only use Eiki's own xenon lamphouses made for that model only. I'd rather be able to slap any old xenon or carbon arc lamphouse on the machine and put a ZIPPER changeover on the machine.

On the 6000, the metric screws on the magnetic takeup clutch motor always work loose and cause weak or no takeup. Does this happen on the 6100 also?

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 04-15-2001 04:16 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I never had a problem with oil leakage at all with the 6100s. Either they changed the design or I was just lucky.

Takeup tension was fine. The 6100 is metric as well (as are the classroom Elmos and, I assume, the xenon Elmos as well). I never did figure out how to adjust the feed tension on the 6100; it's electronically controlled somehow, so that if you thread up the machine and turn off the master power switch, the film will start slowly unwinding from the feed reel. I sometimes had trouble with not having enough tension on the feed arm for really lightweight reels (like 400' plastic reels). There's a switch for "under 2000' reel" and "over 2000' reel" which switches the tension to one of two positions, but even the "under 2000'" position seemed to be a bit light.

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Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000

- posted 04-15-2001 09:47 PM      Profile for Josh Jones   Author's Homepage   Email Josh Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Screw Eiki, get yourself a Kodak 285 or whatever they are. The Fargo Theatre downtown has one and is a great machine. It has a geneva movement. Sound is quite good too. You can get one of these and put a lamp table on it for a lot less than one of those Eiki machines would cost you.

My two cents

Josh

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Neil Chue Hong
Film Handler

Posts: 19
From: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK
Registered: Nov 2000

- posted 04-16-2001 07:35 AM      Profile for Neil Chue Hong   Author's Homepage   Email Neil Chue Hong   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We use a Fumeo over here, and it's extremely good at handling damaged film. Haven't had any problems with the claw mechanism yet, but it does seem to be the most obvious point of failure. Sound quality is only average, but it's easy to thread and has performed admirably in the 7 years we've had it.

Previously, we've used Eiki / Elfs, which continually have power supply problems, and Bell and Howells, which have suffered from internal mechanical failures.

I've also got a Philips machine which is extremely good at shredding film and not much else.

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Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000

- posted 04-16-2001 08:51 AM      Profile for Jeff Taylor   Email Jeff Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As a practical matter, if you need to show 16mm and want a "current" machine your obvious US choices really are virtually limited to Eiki and Elmo, and in terms of fairly straightforward design, parts availability, and factory support, people I know have had better luck with Eiki as Elmo is edging out of the film projector business. I have not had experience with Eiki geneva machine(s), but among the claw designs (both incandescent and xenon) I've found them as good as anything in handling marginal prints, and the three-sprocket designs seem both relatively gentle and very quiet running. Among the xenons, I've found the older EX1500 series to be fairly bulletproof assuming you can live with the light output and your back can handle the reactive power supply! The sprocket/cam drive is simplicity itself (and does include and incher), the cam tank comes out with two screws for service, the exposed take up motor and belt drive is simplicity itself, the felt take up clutch generally gives a tight wind even on large reels, the lamp is a snap to align without tools, the audio (which is located at the top of the machine) comes out for service with two screws and performs well, and overall image quality is about as good as 16 gets. I haven't worked with Horstons or Fumeos, but short of the late lamented Eastman 25's people I know have had good experience with the Eiki's.

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Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000

- posted 04-16-2001 09:07 AM      Profile for Jeff Taylor   Email Jeff Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
FYI: ebay now has a "new, in box" Elmo CX350 for $2,000, and an Eiki EX9000 with 900 hours for $10...go figure!

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Tom Sauter
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 163
From: Buffalo, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2000

- posted 04-16-2001 09:17 AM      Profile for Tom Sauter   Author's Homepage   Email Tom Sauter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Good review, Scott.

The Eiki geneva movement models are quite insensitive to films in poor condition and are really rock steady, however the soundheads are not dampened well enough and wow and flutter is considerably worse than the claw movement machines. Careful tweaking of the claw alignment will greatly improve resistance to jumpy splices and loopsetter performance. You wind up way out of factory spec but hey it works. The early 9100's had power supply problems...

Also at fault is the focus mechanism, which Scott pointed out is easily disturbed. The rubber roller that moves the lens is destroyed the first time you forget to unlock the lens before focusing it and you must then move the lens by hand forever and ever and ever. There is a way to adjust the timing of the changeovers but I've never seen it done.

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Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000

- posted 04-16-2001 10:02 AM      Profile for Jeff Taylor   Email Jeff Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Again, FWIW, the "pseudo" rack and pinion Eiki focusing via the rubber roller can be easily fixed either by ordering the replacement part (+/-$20), or simply replacing the miserable rubber bushing (the old ones turn to goo and the new ones tear) with a piece of automotive vacuum hose.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 04-16-2001 11:44 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree that Fumeos are particularly kind to old and brittle acetate, but my experience is that the price you have to pay for that is a very wobbly picture even with a new or unshrunk print in good condition.

IMHO, FP-16s are just as film-friendly but with notably better picture stability.

Fumeo do make a Super-16 gate assembly: I'm not sure if one is available for the Kinotons.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 04-16-2001 12:32 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The geneva Eikis are actually quite good. I had two customers that had them in Chicago and both rarely required any service. The take up is sometimes a problem but other than that they are great. I once priced one out at about 30K or so and for this price its hard to believe that they sell any of them. Also for Eiki parts you HAVE to go through an Eiki dealer. That I consider a pain in the ass and you don't know if this A-V dealer is on the line with you as far as pricing or not. I have used the larger Elmos and was not impressed with the picture although they do handle older film quite well. The sound quality on the Elmos is absolutely the best that there is. No holds barred!
If I had to spec out a 16mm tommrrow it would definately be the Kinoton machine though!
Mark @ GTS

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Serge Bosschaerts
Film Handler

Posts: 70
From: Schoten, Belgium
Registered: Jan 2000

- posted 04-16-2001 03:02 PM      Profile for Serge Bosschaerts   Author's Homepage   Email Serge Bosschaerts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Also a very good 16mm machine :
Bauer Multi Selection II O, Geneva movement, rocksteady image, capable of projecting large images with 1000 or 1600 W Xenon lamps.
My machine is one of the last one's made by Bauer and has a horizontal Xenon block thats almost identical to the Kineton lamphouse used for 35mm with a very bright picture as a result.
A pleasure to run and very quit.

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1565
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001

- posted 04-16-2001 05:11 PM      Profile for Pete Naples   Email Pete Naples   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We have a lot of Fumeos on the go here, some with sep mag facilities. The Fumeo Super 16 gate assembly works well and is easy to convert, I believe that Kinoton offer this too, but I've got no real experience of it.
The 16mm option on the Ernemman projector is quite good, once you get your head round how it threads.

I can't say I've ever really had unstable pictures from a Fumeo machine, and the sound is decent if it's been aligned right.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

- posted 04-16-2001 08:46 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Josh said: "...get yourself a Kodak 285 or whatever they are. The Fargo Theatre downtown has one and is a great machine. It has a geneva movement. Sound is quite good too."

The EASTMAN 285 was a cousin of the famed EASTMAN Model 25 and Model 30 projectors, optimized for telecine use.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000

- posted 04-16-2001 11:03 PM      Profile for Josh Jones   Author's Homepage   Email Josh Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, that sounds right, John. We also have three telecine heads in the basement, that all the TV stations "donated"

Josh

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