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This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2
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Author
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Topic: EX. Does It Really Worth It
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Scott Norwood
Film God
Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 06-24-2001 03:41 PM
I think it's a cheesy gimmick and basically not worth it. I haven't personally heard an EX mix that I thought made the concept worthwhile. Admittedly, I haven't heard "Toy Story 2" in EX, but that's the only EX mix that people seem to think was really good.
The only EX box that I've worked with is the Dolby SA10. It works fine and does exactly what it says it does. I don't personally think it's worth the price, however. In most theatres, the same money would be better spent on better lenses, better maintenance of existing sound equipment, and any number of other things that will result in more noticeable presentation quality improvements.
The next sound improvement that I would like to see is DTS support for 8-channel mixes and a lower compression ratio, probably using DVD disks. The cost would probably be quite low and this could easily become the killer format. Supposedly, it's possible to press DVD disks which have information on the opposite side which can be read by a standard CD player or CD-ROM drive; if this works in practice, it could preserve backward compatability with existing DTS players and allow a single inventory of disks for all prints.
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 06-24-2001 09:02 PM
I have stated this before and I'll state it again....Surround-EX is the worst bang for the buck in cinema sound. In order to be able to advertise "Surround-EX" you have to use the Dolby SA-10 for that marquee value. Furthermore, if you are a THX theatre, only the SA-10 is on the approved list for EX decoding (odd since other cinema processors with 2:4 matrix decoding are approved). The Dolby SA-10 was an ill conceived unit at best. It was a rushed design and a bastardization of another processor (the CP-45) and it shows. It doesn't play well with others, including in the Dolby Cinema Processor line up. For instance, with a Dolby CP-65, if you don't modify both the DA-20 (by shorting out surface mount resistors on the DA-20) and modify the CP-65's Cat. 443 (again shorting out a resistor) it will mess up your format control...and this is on one of their own processors (the only one that many feel is of "studio grade") Dolby does have an upgrade in the works (and may be in production by now...they were showing the updated rear board at ShoWest...but heck that is only 2-years after this thing was sabotoging otherwise good functional systems! Another nifty "idea" was to only have full-octave EQ on the surround channels and only have 3 channels worth of EQ though the surrounds must be broken up into four channels. From what I have seen, Panastereo's Surround-ES or whatever they are calling it decoder seems the best. It utilizes their THX approved 2:4 matrix decoder and can be ordered with 1/3 octave equalizers. It has front panel LED meters to set the unit up (another glaringly missing feature on the SA-10)...oh and another nice touch...it is only 1-U tall. To top it all off...it costs less than the SA-10 too. But back to surround-EX....in addition to the "box" you must purchase, your surround system may need some beefing up...if you only have two surround speakers on the back wall (or in Regal Theatre's case...none) then you will need to purchase some more speakers...remember that the rear surround channel is expected to be able to play up to 103dB in the middle of the auditorium...only the shallowest of rooms with efficient speakers could do this with merely two speakers. So add two or more surround speakers to your bill. If your installer ran home run lines to the booth, you might be able to cheat the wiring by paralleling the new speakers to the existing ones in the auditorium to save on the labor of pulling in the new lines. Oh but you aren't done yet...there is 2 more channels of amplification you need to have in order to add this single additional channel. So add one of those in. Lastly, and hopefully not least....you will need a technician to hook all this crap up and tune it up properly to benefit from the new Surround-EX films....that is...if you happen to be playing one of the rare films recorded in Surround-EX. In short, it is going to cost you thousands in a typical upgrade and no guarantee that you will be using it for any significant portion of your features. Then there is consumer recognition...do you think that you are in a market where the "Surround-EX" badge on your marquee and adverts. will bring in enough extra patrons to justify the expense?
This brings me back to...Surround-EX is the worst bang for the buck!
If the format interests you and you doing a new installation, the Dolby CP-650 makes things a bit more managable since it is a $1000 (list) option and has 1/3 octave EQ on all channels...the surround speakers can be installed with EX in mind and there are four channel amplifiers that only cost marginally more than their two channel counterparts. It is still expensive for the one derived channel. Then again, you could avoid all of the and get an Allen Surround Sound system...I have read that they create the EX effect all on their own when it is appropriate! Right Gord?  Steve ------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
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Darryl Spicer
Film God
Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 06-24-2001 10:29 PM
Essentialy the panastereo suround es is the same as what I have done with my home stereo unit. It will decode any stereo surround channel to put the center channel active. Believe me for the home system this makes for a great holosonic experience. I have listend to Air Force One and when the machine gun fire is going on you get it from all sides and the rear. It is basically eliminating the phantom effect for the rear channel and vastly improving the rear surround effects to were you can sit off center and still enjoy the holosonic experience.Smart designed a panastereo es system for the home wich is based off of the cinema processor. Note when you run the rear channels off of the reciever for home systems you run it in prologic three channel mode. This will prevent the loss of any signal to a none existent speaker. I experamented several times by plugging the left and right channels into my main stereo unit line inputs and listened closely to how the effects were handeled on several films. That is when I decided to go ahead and purchase the extra reciever to split the signals. Now in my case I had to run two sets of wires one set for left and right speakes mounted in the cornes of the room and of course the center channel speakers in direct center not spread out. All this feeding off the seconed reciever. A second set of wires feeds a second set of side speakers off of the main amp for standard mono surround. I think this type of sound enhancement works better in the home than probably a movie theater because of the various auditorium sizes and the fact that a lot of rear channels are too spread out for the effect to work properly. Plus with all the various problems listed above it is a lot of money to spend. I believe if dts could develope something that would run a discrete center channel it would work better for theaters. Just remember to move the rear surround speakers in towards the center of the back wall.
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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today
Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99
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posted 06-24-2001 10:39 PM
Mark,I completely agree.... Toy Story 2's track is impressive as all hell. Lemme ask a question though, albeit a hypothetical one: You have Theater A and Theater B. Theater A has 500 seats, Dolby Digital Surround EX and THX. Theater B is identical to Theater A in every single aspect except it does not have Surround EX. Both theaters have the same booking demographics, population count and all that. Both theaters have the same film (encoded with Surround EX) and play the movie at the exact same times. Which theater will do more business? How much more business? How much less business? Do most people really care that much about Surround EX? Probably not. Dolby hasn't done much to educate moviegoers about it. So does Surround EX actually increase revenue? Not by much. It can sound great when mixed properly, but most EX movies are not mixed properly. Episode 1 didn't make much use of the back surround channel. The Haunting sounded very typical (this movie has since been remixed for DTS-ES Discrete 6.1). Toy Story 2 was fantastic as well as a few other movies. However Surround EX is far from revolutionary, and these days Pro Logic does little to impress. As mentioned in my post above, home theater sound employs more advanced technology for creating the back surround channel than movie theaters do. And Dolby doesn't get any of the credit. The term "holosonic" was coined by the magazine called "Widescreen Review". I hate that term. I do like how they review every single movie, but the magazine is incredibly boring.
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Rory Burke
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 181
From: Burbank, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 06-25-2001 03:33 AM
Ive EQ'd over 70 ex units throughout the world in almost every configuration possible cp-65, cp,500, with DTS, cp-200<1> etc and have been ultimately pleased with EX. YEs its matrix decoding in a CP-45 housing but I must say that in an Acoustically sound room....<set for SMPTE EQ, HVAC, reverberation, speaker/amplification blah blah blah....the use of EX is quite effective and adds to the overall presentation no matter how subtle it is.... whether its worth it or not is another story. I for a fact know of big chains throughout the world that have bought the systems, installed them, and are now operating them...provided the setup<EQ> process is done by the book <left and right output levels approx 120mv must be as close as possible to prevent nasty "steering" that is also inherent in old cp-45's> SA10's <SATAN> are adequate....i am not a dollar cruncher so on a financial view point others could well answer over me. The new CP-650 with the EX module card is outstanding and a definite improvement over the SA-10 <SATAN> and a joy during set up. As far as EX not being properly mixed?.......well thats dangerous ground to tread on<I dont mess with mixers especially when they are goin out of their way to EQ and set their rooms up properly as well> considering that whatever they mix/edit or do IS ultimately what is intended for us to hear or see....so if they record a "bad EX track" then i technically want to hear a "bad EX track" being played through my sound systems. Also....dont expect too much out of an analog system that was created to accentuate a digital one....that in its ownself logically speaking is a "no no" in my book. But we are here mostly to talk abut remedies to our problems and not how they should have been....its more counter productive in my opinion. EX overall does what it is supposed to so long as setup and maintenance is by the book, only those trully seasoned movie goers will really enjoy it for what it is, it is a substantial cost and modification to your existing sound system........however, alot and i mean alot of theaters ARE purchasing them and installing them and having success with them as well. Call Lonny Jennings at Dolby or email him......he does work for Dolby..but he will give you an honest respectable opinion about EX. Check the newest THX certification list for the addition of certified EX hardware
Rory
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