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Author Topic: SDDS backup track defeat
Brad Miller
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Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-05-2001 03:15 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I am setting up a sound rack with SRD/DTS/SDDS and am configuring them to be digital failsafes, should one format drop out during a show. The room is set up for 8 channels, so I wanted to make SDDS the primary audio source, defaulting to the other two digital formats as a backup (instead of analog). There is just one problem. SDDS incorporates their own "backup" track, so that when the primary "high quality" track has a dropout, instead of falling back to SR it falls to the SDDS backup "low quality" track.

This is a really stupid idea and quite honestly, it sucks. I don't know how others feel, but the backup SDDS track in my opinion sounds WORSE than just falling to SR. To make matters worse, I sometimes hear some of the channels dropping to the backup track, while the others that are not experiencing a dropout continue playing in the primary track. This is horribly distracting during a show!

Question #1:
How can this backup SDDS track be 100% completely and absolutely defeated at all times? I do not ever want to hear it play again. Like I said before, analog SR sounds better...but in this particular installation, if the SDDS falls back to it's backup track, there are two more digital systems just waiting to "jump in and take over", but that won't happen until the SDDS drops through it's low quality track. Thus, the SDDS will have to be placed last in line of the 3 digital units (pretty much defeating the 8 channel) if this can not be defeated.

Question #2:
Is there a way to modify an SDDS player so that it will function like a SRD unit, in the idea that it will not attempt to resume digital playback until "X" number of seconds after good data is received?

Anyone?


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-05-2001 03:26 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dumb question: What would happen if the SDDS reader just couldn't "see" the backup track? For example, what if that side of the optics was blocked? Does the reader need to "see" both tracks to play SDDS, or will it play the primary track in full SDDS digital even without the backup track being readable at all?

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Brad Miller
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Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-05-2001 03:27 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
You mean like putting a piece of tape over one lens, right? If I remember the configuration correctly, each side of the film has 4 primary channels and 4 backup channels (to backup the 4 primary channels of the opposite side). So unfortunately, that wouldn't work (unless I have info that screwed up in my head).


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John Pytlak
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Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
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 - posted 07-05-2001 03:41 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here is what I found on the Sony SDDS website:
http://www.sdds.com/tech/prodspec/dfr2000.html

_____________________________________________________________________

"Eight Discrete Digital Audio Channel Capability
Up to eight discrete digital audio channels (L, LC, C, RC, R, SW,
SL, SR) are recorded on the two edges (S&P sides) of the 35mm
film negative stock. The SDDS Recorder System is also capable of
creating six channel soundtracks on the film negative as well.

Advanced Error Correction
The data patterns are Reed-Solomon encoded for error
detection/correction. In addition to this powerful error correction
scheme (termed Blocked Cross-Interleave Reed-Solomon Code,
BCIRC) a unique feature of the SDDS encoding system is the
recording of "back-up" channels of audio data.

SDDS soundtrack information is placed redundantly on both sides of the film to keep the film
playing in digital should damage occur to the film print. The process of switching to the back-up
information is known as digital concealment. To assist in concealment when switching to the
digital "back-up" channels, discrete level codes for the original three channels are encoded along
with the audio data."

_____________________________________________________________________

Somehow, I recall that they did not "split" the data between the P and S tracks. Any film (e.g., damaged edge), lab (e.g., safelight fog) or reader (e.g., tracking, focus) problems would likely be confined to one side of the film, so it would seem more logical to have a complete set of data on each side of the print.

Should be simple enough to cover each track separately and hear/see what you get.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Brad Miller
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Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-05-2001 03:50 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok, then perhaps I did have that backwards in my head. Regardless, as I've been "told" previously, SDDS has a lower quality backup track to fall back to. If this system doesn't have such a track and both are full quality, then why do I hear the extreme high frequencies on random channels cut in and out on sustained audio? It was explained to me a few years back that the cause was "falling back to the backup digital track". Perhaps that was bad information from another tech?

This phenomenon is most noticeable on items like the THX Broadway logo. It sounds as if someone is A/B switching between two EQs where one eq has everything on the highest frequencies completely cut...and only on certain channels! It doesn't happen on every film, but when it does, it is very obvious and highly annoying. (And yes, I've done this test where the film was not even threaded through the analog reader.)

The problem is at it's worst when the reader (2000 series) is threaded "to the red line", as the manual says. When the reader is threaded one perforation less tension, it does not happen near as often and the sprockets of the film are not under so much stress. Actual dropouts to analog are also less frequent (if at all) when threaded one perforation less. Of course, try and demo this to hard headed people and it's like talking to a brick wall.


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John Pytlak
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Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-05-2001 03:56 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The "backup" is probably lower in quality. But I recall that one side is the primary, and the other is the backup, and the data is not split between the two. I have a SDDS brochure where the S-track (analog soundtrack side) is clearly labeled "SDDS Track", and the P-track (opposite edge of the print) is clearly labeled "SDDS Back-Up Track".

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
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 - posted 07-05-2001 04:29 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I say block one side and see what happens.

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Gordon McLeod
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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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 - posted 07-05-2001 04:32 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Doesn't SDDS work best with both sides blocked

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Nic Margherio
Film Handler

Posts: 91
From: St. Louis MO, USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-05-2001 07:07 PM      Profile for Nic Margherio   Email Nic Margherio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Blocking one track would only partially solve the problem, but there would be a big trade-off.

The P-side carries the "full quality" information for the L, LC, LS, and SW channels along with a "back-up quality" track for the R, RC, RS, and C channels. The S-side is opposite of this. (Full quality R, RC, RS, and C, backup quality L, LC, LS, and SW) Continuously blocking one or the other tracks would provide for switching to analog if digital info is invalid, but you would be playing four entire channels in the lower quality back-up track at all times. I would not want to watch (listen) to a movie this way. Not to mention that the system would still (if you had a bad reel) jump between analog and digital continuosly, regardless of the length of time valid data is present, unlike SRD.

Are you installing a DFP-2000 or a DFP-3000? If your automation is flexible enough and it is a DFP-3000, you could define a format for SDDS-8, (with DTS & SRD fallback) add an extra cue for 8 channel features, and run the rest of the time in DTS or SRD. This way you would retain SDDS-8 capability and eliminate many potential problems with SDDS-6 tracks. If it is a 2000 (or 2500) you could probably use your little trick you describe in the Tips section to bypass the unit unless you have an 8 channel print. Just an idea.

A little bit off the subject, but I have rejected many SDDS reels that cut between the back-up and full quality tracks, only to have Technicolor bill us for the shipping cost of the reels. Apparently when they get the reels back for inspection, they don't have the ability to monitor the individual tracks, only whether it plays in digital or not. Thus, they deemed that the reels were fine and that the theatre should pay for the shipping costs. ("uneccessary reel replacement") Needless to say I would not allow that to happen.

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Brad Miller
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Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-05-2001 07:11 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Nic...so I'm not crazy then about the track configuration. (The unit is a DFP2000.) That backup track is pretty bad quality, isn't it?

I've been told that there is a way around this, because the labs supposedly have set up their units in this manner to check the printing. Someone out there must know how this is done!


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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
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 - posted 07-05-2001 09:06 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wonder... what do people who work at Sony actually think of SDDS? They don't seem to support the format very well (you don't see any Sony reps who post here or anywhere else).

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Mike Judge
Film Handler

Posts: 50
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 07-06-2001 04:42 AM      Profile for Mike Judge   Email Mike Judge   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If I were them I'd be afraid to post on here.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-06-2001 05:13 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's easy to attack an enemy who won't defend itself.

To be honest, I think most people would be impressed that a Sony rep was posting. They'd be fools if they wasted their time attacking the person instead of discussing solutions.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-06-2001 08:38 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nic said: "The P-side carries the "full quality" information for the L, LC, LS, and SW channels along with a "back-up quality" track for the R, RC, RS, and C channels. The S-side is opposite of this. (Full quality R, RC, RS, and C, backup quality L, LC, LS, and SW)"

If you're correct, I guess my SDDS brochure that identifies the S-track as "SDDS Track" and the P-track as "SDDS Back-Up Track" was written by a marketing person, rather than someone who knew the details of the format. As I said, it would be more logical NOT to split the channels between the two tracks, as any problem would tend to affect one side of the print.


------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Michael Brown
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1522
From: Bradford, England
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 07-06-2001 09:06 AM      Profile for Michael Brown   Email Michael Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yup, I was lead to believe that one side was the primary and the other a backup track. With both tracks pretty much identical.

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