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Topic: Super Simplex whine

John Anastasio
Master Film Handler

Posts: 325
From: Trenton, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 07-07-2001 09:15 PM

Sounds like something you might drink at a projectionist convention.

I just installed a Super Simplex in my booth to keep my Brenkert BX80 company, but what a difference in the sounds of those machines! (What a difference in a LOT of things...like quality, and finger room) All you hear when the Brenkert runs is the sound of the film being pulled through, but the Simplex has what I consider an annoying gear whine. It's in the projector head and I suspect the drive gear to the intermittent, since it has a slight modulation at the same speed as the rotation of that large gear. There's not a lot of play in the gear train and I don't notice any unusual wear. Is this just what they sound like or what?

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 07-07-2001 09:37 PM

Compared to a Brenkert which has its gear train in an oil bath and completely sealed compared to the open gear train (besides the flimsy door in the back) gear train of the Super which has no oil bath, I can understand why you hear a difference.

Aaron

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-07-2001 10:27 PM

A properly running Super should not exhibit any sort of whine. Either there is a mis-mmatched gear pair of one of the frame bushings has worn oval and is allowing a gear pair to mesh to deeply. All in all the Super should not make any more noise than the Brenkert when running no film through it. When running film a properly setup Super can be very quiet and put out darn good images. Yes, its a bit tight on threading but either the Brenkert or Super run hand in hand for the worst oil mess from a projector.
Mark @ GTS

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-08-2001 02:24 AM

Just a wrrrrrrr of the shutter breaking wind

is all you should hear form a Simplex E-7 or Super. I have to agree with Mark. Are you using the correct main drive gear? Simplex and RCA have a different pitch in the teeth. Normally, with no film in the Simplex Super or E-7, it will be very quiet.

Brenkerts RULE!

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-08-2001 09:39 AM

I'm no Brenkert expert but I have heard one that was dialed in to a "T"...I mean it seemed perfect....

It has NO noise when running...nadda, nill, zilch...put film in it...virtually no change..only on a splice did it go "ca-clack". I have NEVER heard a Super or E-7 run that quiet.

Whirring noise, I'll agree could very well be the wrong maing drive gear...often a noisy Simplex can be fixed with a proper main drive gear. This presumming the gear meshes in the machine are right.

I have various mis-fits inside the machines...Sometimes while in an older booth that has a huge stock pile of parts....I'll be changing a worn out gear that has a bunch of slop and the new gear...fits WAY TOO TIGHT....a grap another new gear...fits like a glove!...couldn't tell you the history of these parts as to why one worked well and the other didn't though both new and having the same part number and same outward appearance.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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John Anastasio
Master Film Handler

Posts: 325
From: Trenton, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 07-08-2001 11:17 AM

I pulled the main drive gear and shaft and spun up the soundhead just holding the gear and shaft up against the soundhead drive gear...you could FEEL the vibration. I compared the gear to the one on the Brenkert/RCA9030 combination and it's an RCA gear allright...an exact duplicate. I'll order a new Simplex gear. Thanks, guys!

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Tom Hutchinson
Film Handler

Posts: 11
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Registered: May 2001

posted 07-08-2001 08:12 PM

Don't confuse the projector with the soundhead. The drive gear large fiber or composition) has to match the soundhead; the pinion matches the projector, but Brenkert and Simplex are cut alike (except the Brenkert pinion is shaped just a bit differently).

What was meant was that if you were using a drive gear designed for a Simplex soundhead on an RCA soundhead, then it would work, but it would whine.

Remember that the Super was designed around 1927, and there were many companies that made parts for it; most fit just fine, but others might be slightly off. Swap some gears around with a scrap projector and see what happens!

I think you will find a lot of difference in the way the Super handles splices. Projectors designed after WWII use gentle loops; projectors designed before that use tight loops. Tight loops cause trouble on tape splices (which, of course, didn't exist when the projectors were designed).

Tom

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-08-2001 10:46 PM

There is also a possibility that the gear mesh might be too tight. Leave just a little slop. (not much is needed). Also, some whining can be caused by a small amount of mis-alignment of the projector head with respect to the sound head.

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John Anastasio
Master Film Handler

Posts: 325
From: Trenton, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 07-09-2001 04:09 PM

Paul, the first thing I did was to play around with the gear mesh. I like the way that Simplex gives you that adjustment knob right up front to handle that. The drive gear whines no matter how you have the projector set. It's definitely the drive gear. You can hold that baby by itself between your fingers on the soundhead drive gear and it'll whine like crazy, even with no projector attached.

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-09-2001 04:21 PM

John

Listen to Mark Gulbrandsen, Tom Hutchinson and Paul Thompson!

The fiber gears for projector to soundhead drive are different between manufacturers (RCA/Simplex). Many will work with each other, but will whine because of differences in gear pitch.

You can also check the operation and parts books for the Super and E-7. Download the Super,E-7 and RCA 1040 through 9050 books from Film-Tech. There is a little info about the gears in them.

Be careful about how you clean and lube these machines. I have seen some people use grease on the gears, and this is a no-no.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-09-2001 09:11 PM

Molidneum disulphide greese works very well on the E7 and the super gear train as it will cling to the gears and not tend to get thrown off. Plus it will stand up to high temps much better than oils will

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-09-2001 10:02 PM

Gordon, I respectfully disagree with any grease being used on the Simplex Supers or E-7 gear trains. Those machines ran beautifully for 60 to 70 years with Simplex oil only. I don't understand why anyone would want to change and screw it up.

Grease can get in the small oil passages on the shafts and bushings and plug them up. I have rebuilt a few Supers about 25 years ago because idiots were using grease on the gears.

Using grease is just simply a lazy man's way out to cut a corner, and the machine will suffer from it. So will the repair bills.

Some of the older Supers may have grease cups on the rear shutter bearing. That is the only place grease should be used.

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Harry Robinson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 155
From: Franklin Tennessee
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-09-2001 10:58 PM

I might as well throw in my two cents here. I've been putting up with a whining Super since I got into this hobby a couple of years ago. After holding the phone up to the machine for Paul Thompson to hear, we came to the conclusion that there is a bind somewhere in the head. When turning the shutter shaft you can feel it bind when the intermittent pulls down. Well, I've got another Super on the bench, and there's no comparison between the two when it comes to smoothness. My original machine actually makes a slight gear noise when turning the shutter knob. This new one is totally silent. You can't feel when the intermittent pulls. I'm about half through cleaning it up. I'll post after the first time it runs and tell you if there's a real difference.

Once again, thanks to John Eickhof for help above and beyond the call to duty.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-09-2001 11:10 PM

Harry, from what you describe, the difference between your old one and the new one will be like cold night in Antarctica as compared to a hot day in Africa.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-10-2001 07:03 AM

I have always used greese on the gears and a few drops of oil in every tube every day. Never had a problem.
The only problem was an oblique E7 and that problem went away when I converted it over to a verticle shaft.
I found the greese made a big difference in the performance when the machines were used with higher powered lamps and platters compared to there original duty cycle of 20min reels

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