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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Polishing the sound drum
Harry Robinson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 155
From: Franklin Tennessee
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-25-2001 03:11 PM      Profile for Harry Robinson   Email Harry Robinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At the risk of beating a dead horse, I am once again trying to completely eliminate base side scratching in my old RCA 1040. The problem is apparently coming from the sound drum, which I have polished to a level of medium smoothness. I am thinking that the residual marking (which can only be seen by reflecting light off of the film and using a magnifying glass) can be eliminated by polishing to a mirror finish.

There seem to be two schools of thought on this, and I'd like to get a cross section of opinion from the experts on what to do.

I plan to mount the sound drum shaft in a drill press Thursday evening, then apply 3M Finess-it II finishing material with 3M Imperial microfinishing film until I see a high mirror finish. This technique was recommended by Jim Duncan in Decatur AL.

However, I mentioned this to another tech, and he said I would ruin the sound drumm using this method. He suggested taking the shaft to a machine shop, having it indicated, then reground.

Which is better? Do I risk ruining the sound drum with the finishing compound?

Wolk wants 289 bucks to replace this part. I think we all know that is more than this sound head is worth.

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 07-25-2001 04:23 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Harry!

First of all, drill presses are not very accurate when it comes to precision work. And if you do insist on using a drill press, then use the best chuck that you can...like a precision Albrecht!! And double check that the drill press is running true and that there are no burrs in the chuck! How do you know that a chuck will not damage the bearing surfaces on the shaft! If you insist on this method, then put the shaft and drum in a lathe with a collet--which should not damage the shaft. Also, when hand polishing, how do you know that you are not going to screw up the coeccentricity of the drum and shaft which will result in a definate unwanted wobble!! Also, Even though it may look like a good polished surface, how can you be sure that you have not created a taper or "wave" on the drum surface! If you do insist on this method, then you will probably need to inspect your work with proper inspection dyes and oils--such as if you were scraping bed ways--which is an art of its own--or a surface plate with v-blocks and dial indicator.

If you look at the ends of the shaft, then you can see the center drill counter sinks that were used when the part was origonally turned, heat treated then o.d. ground. If the shaft and drum is put back on an o.d. grinder, then a mag base and dial indicator can be used to get everything perfectly "clocked in" and coencetric--not to mention a perfect finish! My only concern is the possibility of maybe having to regrind the bearing surface also to match the drum. You would then either have to find new bearings with the correct dimensions, and grind to those dimesnsions, or press on sleeve bearings to make up the difference.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 07-25-2001 04:38 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Using Jeweler's red rouge compound will help to bring out a mirror finish which have to be maintained ( keep clean & oil surface when not in use ) since the original harden finish has been tampered with. I have also seen people go to a metal plating shop and chrome plate and have seen some instances where people have coated the cleaned surface with polyuenthane. The end result will be not as good as a new drum kit since you may have added surface concentric problems in trying to finish your existing drum.
RCA and older Simplex original drums are becoming very rare...I bought the two last SH-1000 drums in stock at Wolk since I have a screening room customer who does not want to upgrade ( he has Dolby Digital EX in a 35 seat room ) since his operator has been using the same soundheads for 62 years ( he is 89 years old - he looks like 50 and still drives to work every day ).
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 07-25-2001 05:07 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As far as what Richard Fowler said about chrome plating. He is talking about hard chrome plating such as what is used in engine cylinders, piston rings, etc. This can also be used to build up worn surfaces so that they can be reground/finished. Of course, this process is limited to the type and suitability of the material to be plated. Also, a surface and or o.d. ground surface can be resistant to corrosion--this has to deal with metalurgy.

As far as ruining the heat treated surface. This is dependant on the type of material used to make the drum, and the heat treat process. There are heat treating processes used to just treat the surface of the material (case hardening), as well as proceses used to treat the entire thickness of the part. There are also secondary heat treat processes used to do things like tempering.

If anyone knows what type of material these shafts were made of, then I can look up the correct heat treat process.

My only regret is that I am already finished with my machine tool classes for now. Making a sound drum and shaft would have been a suitable class project! Harry--see if any of your local community colleges have machine tool programs. Enroll--you'll learn something and may be able to make some parts? Also, check out if there are any machinists hobby clubs in your local community--they may be able to help you out!

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-25-2001 05:17 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know our situations are different, so take this with a grain of salt... My Dad taught me this trick, when I was a kid, for working on guns. If you get surface rust on the blued metal parts you have to be careful when trying to clean it off, lest you remove the bluing and make the parts more susceptible to rust in the future. (Otherwise, you'll have to have the gun reblued.)

I was taught to take a piece of brown paper, like a grocery bag, and saturate it in WD-40. Then use that as if it were a piece of sandpaper to remove the rust. I have used this technique with some success to remove rust from sound drums as well.

Whether using this on a projector or on guns, the main idea here is if the problem can't be fixed this way it's probably too bad to be fixed another way without replacing the part in question.

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 07-25-2001 05:34 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I CANNOT STAND WD-40!!! Yes, the stuff can INITALLY be a good lubricant, but after it dries IT WILL PROMOTE CORROSION!

Here is an example: When I went away for basic training, one of the things that I did was prep my tools for storage. I thourghly cleaned them, coated them with WD-40 and put them back into my roll-a-way. Mind you that my roll-a-way was indoors and not subject to a corrosive atmosphere: ie water etc. Well, when I came home on leave between leaving basic training and going to my first duty assignment I of course checked my tools. ARRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!MAJOR RUST!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had to spend a lot of time cleaning them, and was lucky that some very expensive tools were not ruined!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyhow, after cleaning them up, I had to reprep them for storage. I used Marvel Mystery Oil, and did not have the same problem--in fact, it did an excellent job of protecting my tools, which were stored under the same conditions that they were when I origonally stored them with
WD-40. I WILL NOT recommend WD-40 to anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Another MAJOR contributing factor leading to rust/corrosion is fingerprints and the oils emitted from your skin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There have been articles in machinists hobby magazines like Home Shop Machinist about hot blueing metal...

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-25-2001 06:14 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Harry,

Can you describe in explicit detail the kind of scratches you are getting? Honestly, assuming that your sounddrum is spinning freely, I'm thinking your scratches are most probably coming from elsewhere in the projector. Can you take a brand new trailer and run it a bunch of times and mail me a clipping of the scratches? I'll take a macro picture of it and post it here.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-25-2001 06:20 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here is my two cents worth that I email both John Pytlack and Will
"Hi John
The standard induction motor is 1725 RPM not 1765 so people will notice a difference
The sound drum usuallly has lathe centres in them so it can be mounted on a standard lathe using centres and a drive dog and pollished.
This requires the use of several different jewers rouge sticks.
Not the drum was hardned after grinding originally so it will be tough going
After it is honed done the pince roller will have to be adjusted to make sufficient contact with the new drum as it will be slightly smaller
Re start up speed the standard that simplex introduced in the 50's to accomodate 3d large reels was to place a 1-2 ohm 100-200watt resistor in line with the motor. This tends to swamp the inrush current to the motor and as such slow down the starting torque. This will not work with a sync motor and infact damage it. With sync motors you need to convert to a 3 phase one and then use a frequency controller such as the Allen Bradley (standard on film printers and processors) and program the ramp up that is desired.
THe most expensive is to go with large steppers controlled by software
Hope that helps. Pitted soundhead have been a problem in driveins that were not winterized or in the tropics and I have had to have many honed down
but the polish must be perfect or scratching will be a big problem
Also have him check the flywheel as most older simplex/RCA's were a flywheel inside a flywheel with a viscus liquid coupling them If there is any damage or drag it will cause a non measurable type of flutter that used to be called wiskers
The bearings should also be replaced and again they must be a precision type. Sealed ones can be a problem as the greese often makes them still and I have had to regularly put a drill on the shaft to break them in at high speed. Open ones that require oil are a better solution but regretably in this day of non trained personell they are unpracticable"
The hardening process by the way was usually acyanide case hardening if it was made prior to 1942
If you chrome plate (I have done that to many shaftes in older obselete machine I cant get anymore" have it ground down a bit first and then reground to the original diameter afterwards
Don't touch the shaft or bearings will be a big issue

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 07-25-2001 06:51 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the reply, Gordon!

I downloaded the RCA books from Film-Tech. Quote the RCA 1040 book page 6 item(10) second edition Sept 23, 1936 or 8 ('tis hard to tell):
"The A.C. Motor is of the split phase starting, induction type and runs at a constant speed of 1765 R.P.M. It is rated at 1/4 h.p. The motor incorporates an automatic starting winding from the motor circuit when normal running speed has been reached." I wonder if the 1765 r.p.m. is a typo? Unfortunately, I could not find a reference to motor r.p.m. in any of the other RCA 1040-9030 or Simplex SH1000 books. Furthermore, much of the info was not stamped onto the motor's data tag at the factory--I wonder why not, since there are blocks in which to stamp this info.

Gordon, what about the start resistors having been removed on the 1050 and later soundheads as per the books?

According to the RCA 1050 book, downloaded from Film-Tech, the origonal open bearings were replaced with metal shielded bearings. One thing that I have learned is that metal shielded are much-much better than rubber shielded, which tend to be stiff!! But, the metal shielded will not hold lubricants/grease as well as rubber shielded bearings. The only thing that I like about shielded vs open bearings is less chance of notorious oil leaks, which can ruin slit lenses!

Gordon, surface grinding and o.d. grinding should be done after heat treatment, otherwise you are defeating your purpose. Thanks for the info about the origonal heat treat process. My guess is that case hardening was picked as a means of shortening the production time!

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Pete Lawrence
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 192
From: Middleburg, PA
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 07-25-2001 07:16 PM      Profile for Pete Lawrence   Email Pete Lawrence   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This may seem like a silly question, but what is the surface finish on a Simplex or RCA drum as it came from the manufacturer? Is it a mirror surface or a very fine matte surface produced by grinding or something else?

Harry, if that cat of yours was mine he would now be a wall decoration after what he did!

WD40 is more solvent and only a lubricant until it evaporates. Once it has evaporated so has any protection you thought you had.

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 07-25-2001 07:40 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon--or anyone: another question for you concerning the rotary stabilizer. Yes, mine is liquid filled and it seems as if there is one inside the other, like you said. I have also examined the RCA books which are as you described. According to the books, these stabilizers are serviceable. I was told that there were screws covered with Bondo, then painted. Not so with mine. It sems to be spot-welded! Please explain!! Mine does not sem to be serviceable!!!!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-25-2001 07:42 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In fact all the newer simplex(non sync style) we installed with reels always had a slow start resistor installed in the base to prevent takeup snatch
The simplex was alway 1725 for nonsync motors 1765 would require a wierd field arrangement
I have never tryed disassembling the flywheel as any microscopic piece of dirt will bind between the to surfaces. I was always told to spin the flywheel on its shaft and then grap it to stall it and then imediatley let go of it and it should start up again if it is okay
Yes hardening must bedone before grinding sorry if I wasn't clear on that


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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-25-2001 08:27 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Doesn't hardly seem as though the sound drum could be the culprit. Unless the bearing are goofed up or it's dragging or something, it should be turning as fast as the film going through. If it is the sound drum and not the bearings etc. it should only scratch the film while the drum is getting up to speed. I'd think.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-25-2001 09:42 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I kinda' figured that people would understand the concept of REMOVING the coating of WD-40 from any and all parts before reassembling them and CERTAINLY before running any film over a sound drum that was treated with it!

I agree that it isn't the best thing to use in many circumstances but in this case it is used to help dissolve any rust on the surface.

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Sean McKinnon
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1712
From: Peabody Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 07-26-2001 03:10 AM      Profile for Sean McKinnon   Author's Homepage   Email Sean McKinnon   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
WD-40 is not a lubricant. It is a "Water Disponsnet" Using it in the way that was described up there is proper, using it as oil is not. People think you spray wd-40 on bike chains to lubricate it but thats not the case the reason you put it on your bicycle chain is to prevent rust.

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