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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » How Long Should Red LED's Last?

   
Author Topic: How Long Should Red LED's Last?
Jonathan M. Crist
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 531
From: Hershey, PA, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 07-30-2001 02:54 PM      Profile for Jonathan M. Crist   Email Jonathan M. Crist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For my analog sound I have a Component Engineering reverse scan red LEDs. (These are the same #32075 LED's used in the CAT 701 reader). When these were installed about 3 1/2 years ago, I was told they should last 5-7 years as I am only a part-time house. Every several months or so, I have had to turn up the output to keep the A chain in my Dolby processor where it should be. The LEDs are now pretty much at the end of the output scale and their useful life.

Was 5-7 year as projected lifespan just sales hype?

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 07-30-2001 04:24 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The red LED is actually a Dolby product which all manufacturers are using....there has been a learning curve on the proper operation of these units...the desired goal has been 5 - 7 years but we have seen from 18 months to 3+ years depending on how the product was originally installed, type of power supply, tampering of settings after installation and many other factors. Dolby has recently sent out new improved Digital boards and manufacturers are experimenting with faster lenses and improved power supplies to achieve that goal.....every new idea needs a incubation stage in the world of reality.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Jon Bartow
Master Film Handler

Posts: 287
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 07-31-2001 06:34 AM      Profile for Jon Bartow   Email Jon Bartow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Most of the LED's that I have had to replace have around 10,000 hours on them. That's for the Dolby Digital readers, which have a very hard time working below 2.5vDC video level. The analog readers seem to last a bit longer (12,000hrs) as one can get away with a lower voltage and still obtain Dolby level. It also will shorten LED life if one sets the power supply way up right from the beginning.
If you are not doing so already, write down somewhere the reading on the lamphouse hour meter when you install a new LED. It will not be 100% accurate, but it should be close enough to tell how long the LED's are lasting, provided the LED's are wired so that they are only on when the motor is running.

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Bill Purdy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 07-31-2001 10:57 AM      Profile for Bill Purdy   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Purdy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Please note Richard's comments above regarding the "learning curve". It is so true. LED life is dependent mostly upon heat. The cooler it runs the longer it runs. This is why we mount our LEDs on copper (to drain the heat away quickly), have adjustable power supplies so that you can run lower current until you need more, and are now using faster lenses. We further recommend that you switch the LEDs off when not needed. Every minute they are off adds a minute to their tenure. It also isn't a bad idea to take the doors off the sound heads for better air circulation.

Further adding to their life is the fact that Dolby has learned a lot more about the care and feeding of these rascals. Dolby is now testing all of them and they have had at least one batch with a 90% reject rate. They have found that most of the LEDs have an initial drop-off in output during the first 30 or so hours of use. Therefore, Dolby cooks them first to get past this period so that when you put them in service they will be stable. This also weeds out the potential trouble makers.

How long should they last?? We still don't really know because of all the factors just mentioned. We recently had a call from a technician asking this question because he was concerned that he had some that had lasted only two years. Further conversation revealed that in this theatre the LEDs had NEVER been turned off.

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Bill Purdy
Component Engineering

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Jeff Stricker
Master Film Handler

Posts: 481
From: Calumet, Mi USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 07-31-2001 02:24 PM      Profile for Jeff Stricker   Email Jeff Stricker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One of the issues with switching a semiconductor device on
and off (especially one that generates a lot of heat and is working
near it's thermal limit) is that the action of powering up and then down produces heating and cooling cycles. This, owing to the issues of thermal expansion and contraction, puts stress on the silicon chip along with it's packaging and connections to it's lead structure. Such thermal cycling, if significant, can produce premature failures.

The real way to find out if this is a problem is to conduct life tests on LED devices running continously (with the proper operting current and assumed ambient temperature) and devices subjected to some "typical" on/off profile.

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Bill Purdy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 07-31-2001 03:52 PM      Profile for Bill Purdy   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Purdy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Agreed, Jeff, and part of the reason for the copper heat sinks. As near as we can tell, our average temperature rise of the die is only 10 degrees C above ambient. This is very hard to measure. The potential cycling matter is one of the reasons why our LS-40 power supply's On/Off circuit is both slow starting and slow releasing.

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Bill Purdy
Component Engineering

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 07-31-2001 04:03 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some improvements in power supplies are of note.....like the soft ramp up of power to the led when switched on.....mini computer switcher grade types with tighter regulation.....a learning curve....a long way from a automobile tail light socket bulb you would find in a RCA 1040/1050 soundhead..........
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Greg Pauley
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 173
From: Huntington, WV, USA
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 07-31-2001 04:57 PM      Profile for Greg Pauley   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Pauley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I changed all of our booths over to Kelmar's LED's early on and at that time the thinking was to leave the units on during operating hours. Now, the thinking has changed to only powering the units during the presentation. Which is going to make the LED last longer?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-31-2001 09:21 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

First off. Before raising your LED level (via the power supply), I hope you maxed out your pre-amp gain (CP-55, if memory serves). As others have stated, the key is running the LED at the lowest level possible. We normally start the LED supply at the minimum setting.

One thing to check on your readers are the links on the reader preamp...one is located above the IC and one is located below (they are wire links)...yours may still be in place. If they are, cut them and you will get yet more gain.

Also, I have found that using the factory lens holder does not have optimal lens placement resulting in the need for increased amplification/LED intensity. That is, if you put in the ASR series of readers (Component Engineering systems designation) vs the STR or STRD series, your level out of the ASR system will be lower in level.

In any event, I would find it odd if your LEDs need changing. We have LEDs older than yours still working in analog. We are finding that digital leds are getting about 7500 hours and analog leds are getting 15,000 hours and more. There is some variation with some failing much sooner and some marathon ones that never seem to age past a certain point. Your theatre doesn't run that many hours as compared to a typical grind house so again, I find it odd that your LEDs are at the end of their life unless you have been boosting the LED level.

Back when you units were put in, we follow recommened practice of having them on all the time to avoid shocking the LED and to avoid the thumps and squeels on power up. However, with LEDs (particularly the digital ones) not going the distance we would like...we now switch the LED power supply (not the LED) with the motor. the CE LSR-30 supply will soft star the LED on power up. By having the power supply follow the motor, the thumps and other offensive noise will not be an issue since it will stabilize prior to changeover and will stay on until after changeover.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Bill Purdy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 08-01-2001 10:51 AM      Profile for Bill Purdy   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Purdy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg, I think that your question has been answered. Switching them on and off will lengthen their life, but it is best to do so by ramping up or down.

Steve, I don't understand why you can't have the same results with an original lens mount. We have folks doing it all the time. You are using the same light source and the same reader. The only thing different would be the in-and-out location of the lens holder, and you should be able to adjust the LED into position. If you can't get it in far enough without bumping into the sound drum, just shim up the lens holder about one thickness of film. Am I missing something else?

On the matter of the relative life of the digital vs the analog, this is changing. Dolby is now shipping a new digital camera circuit board, the Cat. No. 954R, which replaces the older Cat. No. 654R. This unit not only has more gain, but uses a new CCD which is twice as sensitive. When we add to this the faster lenses we are now using, we now ship the digital power supplies set for around 110 mA whereas we used to ship them at 450 mA (for 4 volts of video).

One further note on milking the most out of the LEDs, the light beam out of these things is quite narrow vertically. Therefore it is necessary to be sure that they are aligned optimally. Just a little up or down adjustment can make a big difference in how much light is getting into the reader which means how much current they need etc., etc., etc...........

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Bill Purdy
Component Engineering

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 08-03-2001 12:59 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bill.

Actually, the problem seems to be height not lateral position...that is, if the LED is pointing level and straight back and the reader is level and pointing forward, the two heights will not be the same (I think the lens will be slightly higher)...sure you can rotate the LED so it maximizes but it won't be as good as your lens mounts....this has been pretty consistant in my findings.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"


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Bill Purdy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 08-03-2001 11:37 AM      Profile for Bill Purdy   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Purdy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well I'll be damned! I hadn't run into that one. Are you finding this in any particular sound-head such as a 5 Star? Do you have any feel for which end is off center? As you know we went to a good deal of effort to locate our components true with the center of the sound drum and it would surprise me to learn that the original lens mount is not aligned, but that is what you seem to be saying. I repeat, I'll be damned!

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Bill Purdy
Component Engineering

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-03-2001 03:32 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bill
Unless he's talking about moving the puck in and out, it sounds like the locator plate is in cockeyed

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Bill Purdy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 08-03-2001 04:02 PM      Profile for Bill Purdy   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Purdy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think so. Note that Steve said it is not a lateral misalignment which could be corrected by the in-and-out of the puck. Also, I learned long ago to trust Steve's analytical ability. He is too careful and critical to make that kind of mistake.

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Bill Purdy
Component Engineering

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 08-03-2001 05:44 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I believe that it is the factory lens holder that is high. No I must admit I haven't determined which of the simplex soundheads this occurs and I think RCA heads fall into this category to if not more so. Since using the STR and STRD systems have always yielded the best and consistant results, I would say Bill, that your measurements are spot on. From a forward scan stand point, how critical was it for the lens to be dead center with reference to the drum center?....Norelcos also had their lens high on the drum. I have also noticed that laterally, the STR and ASR systems will not set up the same...again, I would fault the original lens tube placement and how well they ground things that day.

To be honest, I haven't installed that many ASR systems...most of our customers are thinking digitally.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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