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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
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Author
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Topic: Unfortunate evidence of 'Film Done Wrong'
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Michael Barry
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 584
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-28-2001 11:23 AM
Having just browsed the 'aus.dvd' and 'aus.films' newsgroups, there was a thread about people's experiences seeing 'Lord of the Rings' on either the opening or the second day of release.Sadly, it would seem that something has gone very wrong at certain theatres. Comments included the following: 'Fantastic film, epic atmosphere...loved it. Just one thing...after seeing the clarity of DVD, I've started to notice how images at my local cinema seem grainy and exhibit washed-out colours...even blur at times...now it might be that my local cinema is sucky, anybody else notice how DVD brings up images so much nicer? These comments refer directly to Mummy Returns and Final Fantasy...both of which looked much better on DVD. Of course can't compare LOTR on DVD...yet.' This garnered the response of: 'I've noticed this too. Projectors are no match to a digital format...which has to (project) the image across a large room onto a dirty screen'. and this: 'There were battle scenes and in-close fighting scenes in the movie which I found hard to watch in the cinema, but which looked fantastic on the trailer I downloaded. I think the DVD will be a lot better than watching it at the cinema'. to which this was said: 'I agree - I was up the front of the cinema unfortunately...I think the combo of (major cinema chain) and (their branding of 'stadium seating/digital sound/large screens) didn't do it justice...roll on the DVD!' or: 'Yeah, those long shots were blurry at times. The specs of dirt or little glitches are a bit annoying when you're used to DVD, not to mention the cigarette burns in the corner, but the clarity is still way ahead of DVD, especially when you consider the size of the screen'. '35MM projectors are the hardest things to get focussed, they really annoy me. Films look focussed, and then the credits come up all blurry. Bring on digital projection I say!' '...that's where I saw LOTR. It's certainly a much better cinema than (alternate location), but after watching movies on DVD I could notice the cigarette burns and scratches on the big screen more than ever.' ----------------- Those are the comments thus far, and that's after the film has been open for two days, and not even two whole days at that. When I see posts like this, I try to reply and explain that it is not the fault of the film medium itself, and that 'Film Done Right' cannot be beat (as I did with this thread). Regrettably, they may have to take my word for it, as they are not experiencing this for themselves. Also, I've been responding to these sorts of posts for ages now, but I simply cannot keep up! In spite of the fact that some of the comments contain misinformation and technical errors, the fact remains that this is what they perceive, and it will affect their decision to visit a cinema. If they were shown an excellent presentation each time they visited a theatre, all this would fail to be an issue. In fact, they would actually look forward to seeing future releases on the big screen rather than actually preferring a DVD of the film. The theatre John Wilson and I work at have featured excellent presentations of LOTR, and will quite happily continue to do so for the next six months if required! No-one who sees it there would be less than impressed, and they certainly would not be capable of such remarks. However, these sorts of comments - even though they stem from other theatres - are the result of poor presentations that will hurt the industry as a whole. What can be done?
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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today
Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-28-2001 03:27 PM
Solutions:1--Pay employees well to keep the good ones. People who think staff and projectionists are expendable are morons. That's right, if you think that, then I am calling YOU a moron! It is good business sense to keep the good employees and pay them to stay. Reward the ones who care about their job. Give them a reason to care! 2--Companies like THX should follow up on their certified theaters. It seems anyone can easily get a THX certification so the in house tech can retune the auditoriums. I have heard many awful and many excellent THX rooms, even in the same complex with equally sized auditoriums. It is inconsistent at best. THX doesn't mean anything if it is going to be inconsistent. But sadly they only seem to care if they get their annual pay, or at least that's the way it seems. 3--Send me money for no reason. Lots of it. That'll make every theater a success and also make me very happy, which is the most important thing in anybody's book. DVD will fail and people will only want to see movies in the cinema if you do this.
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Paul Cassidy
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 549
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 12-28-2001 04:14 PM
Yes I would say that parts of the film LOTR were grainy (maybe for a Artistic Purpose) but other parts were crystal clear ,could be so that the CGI would not stand out so much ? but I was impressed with the overall clarity of the film and lack of scratches and change over ques , a seamless presentation with no annoying jumps and bangs at splices ,someone is starting to listen .I have a 3gun CRT at home on a 12ft screen and anamorphic with a Pioneer DVD and I'm sure even with anamorphic on ,I could not come close to what I saw on 35 mil. Film at the cinema ,as long as they keep focusing on the presentation,with my Carbon Arc set up I would wait for a noisy part of the film to fire up the Lamphouse and also flick to non-sync at splices (adds and trailers) so that there is no noise at those times ,DTS discs have got rid of this normal noise we used to put up with a Complexs but others have let the side down with incorrect Aspect, poor focus ,sound toooo LOUD on trailers ,poor splices and damaged prints .
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Bob Maar
(Maar stands for Maartini)
Posts: 28608
From: New York City & Newport, RI
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 12-28-2001 06:52 PM
This should be the wake up call that we all knew was coming. If you are projecting the film as "film done wrong" you must notify management what needs to be done to correct and have "film done right."Pass the lead thread into the main office and let them know they are refering to your theatre. People who care will take corrective measures and shortly you will be running "film done right." I would be interested to hear their reactions.
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 12-28-2001 07:34 PM
But we are preaching to the choir here, guys. We all know that film will blow the socks off consumer video and, IMHO, even the super-hyped DLP that I have seen is STILL inferior to film. But we have to listen to what the layman out there is saying. He's saying his EXPERIENCE is that his DVD images look better than what he experiences in the cinema. What does that tell us who know how good film can look, about what's going on in theatres? You can't argue with his perception. You can't tell him not to believe his eyes and he doesn't care one iota about the technical reasons why images that he pays $8 to $10 to see in a theatre look like crap -- no matter what the reasons, crap still looks like crap. He doen't want to have the economics explained to him of why a theatre is buring its xenon bulb 300 hours past its rated life. Which one of us won't agree that cinema presentation today, especially in certain parts of the country, doesn't come close to anything film is capable of? And there is no sign of it getting better either. When one of those "morons" says he sees a cleaner, "better" image in his home theatre on his wide ratio plasma screen, and then you find out that managment in so-called first-run 70mm cinemas have eliminated a trained, licensed projectionist from the booth and limited his workhours to 20 hrs, one day a week, you have to say, well, yah, the moron is right, because the theatre is being run by morons. I don't want to be redundant about this 70mm presentation of 2001:ASO which I saw last week at the Loews' Astor Plaza in NYC as I have posted it before, but it was a TERRIBLE, disappointing show -- dirty print (Warners told me this theatre was the FRIST one to play this particular print), awful flutter in the sound (almost unlistenable), scratches and NO INTERMISSION. And this, mind you, in a TOP market (NYC), in a high-profile "flagship" theatre. It was here that I found out that the only person in the booth was this kid whose job it was to switch to the "small" film in case the "big" film "jumps out;" they were running a 35mm print along with the 70mm -- both on platters -- and evidently had so much trouble with the 70mm that they kept this high school kid up there to switch to the 35mm backup if the 70 "jumped out." I never got an explanation from him as to what exactly happened when the 70mm print "jumped out," but I shudder to think, but have to assume it was a brainwrap or something just as drastic. And this, in what only a few years ago was one of THE premiere cinemas to go to in NYC if you wanted to see a state-of-the-art, first-class presentation. To the average Joe, suffering through that kind of $10-a-pop disappointment a bunch of times, why wouldn't he prefer his own home setup? And let's face it -- he's the one who is driving the industry. If the Hollywood bean-counters and market analyzers see theatre revenue continuing on the decline because Joe Moron prefers the environment of his own home cinema to see their product, then Hollywood is simply going to bypass the cinema and sell their product directly to him via DVD, HD pay-per-view, whatever, to get it into his home theatre where he is quite vocal about it being his prefered place for viewing it. Warner Brothers spends $27,000 on a 70mm print of 2001 only to have it damaged by a theatre where the general public is saying the presentation stinks. How long do we think that can go on before the ball game is over? We are already in the 9th inning and the theatre owners don't seem to appreciate how close to loosing the game they (and we) are.
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 12-28-2001 07:59 PM
To answer Scott's question, at the Brooklyn Museum we use a high-end Proxima which we rent for film festivals where a number of the submissions are on video, usually on DigiBeta and we shown some DVD features with it. Now, I have to admit, it is still lowrez (NTSC, no HD here) and it has none of the so-called advances like progressive scan. But it is near their top-of-the-line, before you start to get into DLP. I am not sure what the screen brightness is (the video industry uses lumens rather than foot lambers so I can't even tell you how it would compair to what we would consider a normal cinema image, but I can tell you it is nowhere NEAR 16ftL). I can say that this isn't one of those cheaper unit table-top units that are commonly used for computer presentations -- this Proxima goes for something like $15,000 -$20,000 and is a BIG unit. We are filling a 13ftx17ft screen. What does it look like? The contrast/dynamic range is NOWHERE. Fill the top part of the picture with a light sky and anything else in the frame that is dark just looses all detail and turns to globs of black. We also project 16mm using an Eastman 25B (BEST 16mm projector ever made) with a Xetron 2000w xenon behind it(and plenty of heat filters); the 16mm blows the video TOTALLY out of the water in terms of brightness and clarity of detail. And personally, give me grain over aliasing artifacs and electronic video sizzle any day. So saying that even *16mm* looks dramatically better than high-end consumer projection NTSC video pretty much wraps it up as far as video projection is concerned. We have only one course of action -- disconnection. It would be a bit tricky. We would have to disconnect his higher functions..... ooops, sorry. 2001 is still fresh in my mind.
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Jon Miller
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 973
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Registered: Sep 1999
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posted 12-28-2001 09:02 PM
Another answer to Scott's question...it has been done at the Mann Hazard Center 7 (see the Picture Warehouse for a look-see) as well, for special screenings and film festivals. I have gotten passable results with a Hitachi LCD XGA computer projector, an older OEM version of the Proxima DP6850+, placed above the entry alcove in Screen 6 and fed by a consumer Sony VHS deck. The only problem is that the lens cannot be zoomed down enough to fit the image on the screen, which results in the loss of about 10% off the top and bottom of the picture. (Yes, I know, "video done wrong." )Film, it ain't; considering the circumstances, it could have been worse...for a film festival last September, the organizers got enough in terms of sponsorship for Christie Roadster DLP projectors and Sony Betacam decks for all three screens the festival used. This would have been an excellent setup for video. However, the rental firm providing the equipment was unable to come up with the appropriate lenses to handle the throws and had to use the digital scaling "feature" to fit the image on the screen, creating an image that looked as if it was out of focus and was consequently painful to watch (we did receve a few complaints from the customers). Needless to say, this was a major disappointment, considering I could get better results from a conference-room-type LCD projector and a lowly VHS VCR. I agree with Frank...16mm on a good xenon (or carbon-arc, for that matter) projector, such as the Elmo we used or an Eiki EX-4000P I recently acquired and tested at that theatre, looks a heck of a lot better (since film festivals are my specialty, whevever there are mixed formats I insist video be shown first, then 16mm next, then 35mm last, not only for logistical reasons but also for the progression of quality). But whoever said that video looks better than our beloved 35mm, properly projected, didn't have a good set of eyes.
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