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Author
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Topic: Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitors
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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man
Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 02-12-2002 01:43 AM
Prolog:My friend and I are in the starting phase of building a 100-Watt Vacuum Tube Amplifier. So far, we have the Power Transformer (400-0-400 @ 300ma), two 10-Henry 300 ma, and an output transformer to handle the 6550 tubes we are going to use. However, since the full-wave rectification of 400 VAC will yield 565 volts DC after filtering, I cannot find any 600-volt capacitors of the value I need (about 80 Microfarads). I have located some 440-volt RMS 75 Microfarad non-polarized motor run capacitors I might be able to use. Upon full wave rectification, the maximum value the capacitor would be capable of handling is about 622 volts filtered. This would allow about 57 Volts of headroom. I have never used large non-polarized electrolytics for a DC filtering application. I have been told by many it should work. Question: Has anyone tried it, and will it work without employing the "Big Bang" theory? (That would be one big helluva big bang. The capacitors are 2.5 inches in diameter, and 5 inches tall, oil filled.)
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Jeff Stricker
Master Film Handler
Posts: 481
From: Calumet, Mi USA
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-12-2002 06:37 AM
Paul, Personally I've never used NP caps for power supply filters. A NP cap is really just two polarized caps in series (plus to plus) and a way of equalizing the voltage drops across them. My recommendation (what I do all the time in HV PS filters for amateur radio transmitting equip) is get two caps with twice the capacitance you need and put them in series. IE. a couple of 400 V caps in series (that gives you 800V), of course then the actual capacitance will be halved. But you will have double the voltage. Put a large resistor (470K) across each cap to equalize the voltage drop - that way neither cap will hog too much voltage. Series arrangements of filter caps are very common in HV ower supplies. Also, don't worry about having the EXACT value of capacitance the circuit calls for, as long as you are in the ballpark and have no discernable hum. Rule of thumb: you can operate polarized lytics 10% over marked voltage. BTW: Boy the 6550 is getting to be an EXPENSIVE tube. Hopefully you've lined up some spares. I've got an old McIntosh amp that uses them - they get HOT even when idling! Best, Jeff
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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster
Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 02-12-2002 10:00 AM
Paul, I've built many tube amps(and solid state) amps form scratch in past years. The very best caps to use for either power supply or coupling are film type caps. Electrolytics are pretty much obsolete in high end audio gear. All very high end amps use foil type film caps. Some are copper foil and some are even silver foil type. Check out this site for some extremely high quality tube equipment and kits. This guy was one of the chief engineers for Dynaco when they were in full swing. His site is here...... http://www.curcioaudio.com/ Also on another note you can build a solid state single ended amp that will surpass the performance of many high end tube amps. Its quite a simple circuit to build. They are here...... http://www.passlabs.com/aleph.htm Finally there is a great DIY audio site for home built audio gear. This is the film-tech equivelent site for audio people. There are many engineers lurking there that are very helpful when it comes to answering questions. www.diyaudio.com Mark @ GTS
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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man
Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 02-12-2002 12:35 PM
Thanks for the links, gents. Jeff, I thought of stacking them, but the standard canned electrolytics can pose a serious shock hazard. Space was a limitation, too. I was also going to use a choke input power supply, but forgot I needed a swinging choke instead of a smoothing choke on the input to make it regulate better. Swinging chokes are quite pricey, and getting one that will have a worthwhile swing in a wide current range is a problem. Oh, well....now I have a spare 10 Henry choke. So, capacitive input it is going to be.
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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 02-12-2002 08:22 PM
Paul, there are many high end vacume tube kits on the market.There is a store in Phoenix/Scottsdale that is a major supplier.....called Antique Radio Supply. There is also a distributor (I forgot the name offhand) that distributes high end components and kits... I have seen ultra high end amps list for $100,000...each channel along w/the power supply having its own granite chassis. All silver wiring and gold plated contacts....hand wound solid silver wire transformers, porcelain tube sockets etc,etc... For years Conrad Johnson has used LEDs across the tubes so that you do not need an oscilloscope, but I have heard mixed reviews about this.... Vacume Tube Logic has also published some interesting books but are in large advertisements...but they have partial schematics. Western Electric 300B's are back on the market but are very,very expensive for a matched pair!
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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-12-2002 09:34 PM
It was about fifteen years ago now, that an apprentice technician and I were servicing a theatre in Ontario. They had a complaint with a Ballantyne tube amp that hummed. Naturally, the power supply filter cap was the primary suspect. Being short of time, I sent the apprentice and the manager to get a replacement cap, (40 uf/ 350 volt), while I worked on an automation problem. I neglected to specify D.C. ratings for the capacitor. The manager took the tech to an electrical supply outlet. They returned with this huge "bathtub" cap. As the capacitance and voltage ratings equaled (actually slightly exceeded) the original D.C. cap specs., I hooked it to the amp. Several tie-wraps were required to secure this to the amplifier. Long story short: it continued to work until the theatre closed several years later.
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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler
Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 02-13-2002 03:18 AM
Paul, as you have already found out, very few companies now make electros above about 450WV. Nippon Chemi-con do have a type called RWE which is available rated up to 550Vdc which you may just get away with, considering that you may not get 565V with the circuit load in place. Don't forget this is the working voltage and any electro should be run as close to the working voltage as possible for longest life. The smallest value in the RWE range is 100uF and the full part number is RWE-550-LG-100-M-C-A5. I suspect they are not cheap.The alternative suggested by Jeff is a good one, as there are many types available that have a full plastic covering which protects probing fingers from those nasty little electrons. ------------------ Ray Derrick President/Chief Engineer Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935
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