Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitors

   
Author Topic: Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitors
Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 02-12-2002 01:43 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Prolog:

My friend and I are in the starting phase of building a 100-Watt Vacuum Tube Amplifier. So far, we have the Power Transformer (400-0-400 @ 300ma), two 10-Henry 300 ma, and an output transformer to handle the 6550 tubes we are going to use.

However, since the full-wave rectification of 400 VAC will yield 565 volts DC after filtering, I cannot find any 600-volt capacitors of the value I need (about 80 Microfarads).

I have located some 440-volt RMS 75 Microfarad non-polarized motor run capacitors I might be able to use. Upon full wave rectification, the maximum value the capacitor would be capable of handling is about 622 volts filtered. This would allow about 57 Volts of headroom.

I have never used large non-polarized electrolytics for a DC filtering application. I have been told by many it should work.

Question:

Has anyone tried it, and will it work without employing the "Big Bang" theory?

(That would be one big helluva big bang. The capacitors are 2.5 inches in diameter, and 5 inches tall, oil filled.)



 |  IP: Logged

Jeff Stricker
Master Film Handler

Posts: 481
From: Calumet, Mi USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-12-2002 06:37 AM      Profile for Jeff Stricker   Email Jeff Stricker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, Personally I've never used NP caps for power supply filters. A NP cap is really just two polarized caps in series (plus to plus) and a way of equalizing the voltage drops across them. My recommendation (what I do all the time in HV PS filters for amateur radio transmitting equip) is get two caps with twice the capacitance you need and put them in series. IE. a couple of 400 V caps in series (that gives you 800V), of course then the actual capacitance will be halved. But you will have double the voltage. Put a large resistor (470K) across each cap to equalize the voltage drop - that way neither cap will hog too much voltage. Series arrangements of filter caps are very common in HV ower supplies. Also, don't worry about having the EXACT value of capacitance the circuit calls for, as long as you are in the ballpark and have no discernable hum.

Rule of thumb: you can operate polarized lytics 10% over marked voltage.


BTW: Boy the 6550 is getting to be an EXPENSIVE tube. Hopefully you've lined up some spares. I've got an old McIntosh amp that uses
them - they get HOT even when idling! Best, Jeff


 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-12-2002 10:00 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul,

I've built many tube amps(and solid state) amps form scratch in past years. The very best caps to use for either power supply or coupling are film type caps. Electrolytics are pretty much obsolete in high end audio gear. All very high end amps use foil type film caps. Some are copper foil and some are even silver foil type. Check out this site for some extremely high quality tube equipment and kits. This guy was one of the chief engineers for Dynaco when they were in full swing. His site is here...... http://www.curcioaudio.com/

Also on another note you can build a solid state single ended amp that will surpass the performance of many high end tube amps. Its quite a simple circuit to build. They are here...... http://www.passlabs.com/aleph.htm

Finally there is a great DIY audio site for home built audio gear. This is the film-tech equivelent site for audio people. There are many engineers lurking there that are very helpful when it comes to answering questions. www.diyaudio.com
Mark @ GTS


 |  IP: Logged

Barry Hans
Film Handler

Posts: 92
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 02-12-2002 10:25 AM      Profile for Barry Hans   Author's Homepage   Email Barry Hans   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's another good link- http://www.AudioAsylum.com/index.html

 |  IP: Logged

Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 02-12-2002 12:35 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the links, gents.

Jeff, I thought of stacking them, but the standard canned electrolytics can pose a serious shock hazard. Space was a limitation, too.

I was also going to use a choke input power supply, but forgot I needed a swinging choke instead of a smoothing choke on the input to make it regulate better. Swinging chokes are quite pricey, and getting one that will have a worthwhile swing in a wide current range is a problem.

Oh, well....now I have a spare 10 Henry choke. So, capacitive input it is going to be.


 |  IP: Logged

Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 02-12-2002 08:22 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, there are many high end vacume tube kits on the market.

There is a store in Phoenix/Scottsdale that is a major supplier.....called Antique Radio Supply. There is also a distributor (I forgot the name offhand) that distributes high end components and kits...

I have seen ultra high end amps list for $100,000...each channel along w/the power supply having its own granite chassis. All silver wiring and gold plated contacts....hand wound solid silver wire transformers, porcelain tube sockets etc,etc...

For years Conrad Johnson has used LEDs across the tubes so that you do not need an oscilloscope, but I have heard mixed reviews about this....

Vacume Tube Logic has also published some interesting books but are in large advertisements...but they have partial schematics.

Western Electric 300B's are back on the market but are very,very expensive for a matched pair!

 |  IP: Logged

Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-12-2002 09:34 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It was about fifteen years ago now, that an apprentice technician and I were servicing a theatre in Ontario. They had a complaint with a Ballantyne tube amp that hummed. Naturally, the power supply filter cap was the primary suspect.

Being short of time, I sent the apprentice and the manager to get a replacement cap, (40 uf/ 350 volt), while I worked on an automation problem. I neglected to specify D.C. ratings for the capacitor.

The manager took the tech to an electrical supply outlet. They returned with this huge "bathtub" cap. As the capacitance and voltage ratings equaled (actually slightly exceeded) the original D.C. cap specs., I hooked it to the amp.

Several tie-wraps were required to secure this to the amplifier.

Long story short: it continued to work until the theatre closed several years later.

 |  IP: Logged

Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 02-13-2002 03:18 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, as you have already found out, very few companies now make electros above about 450WV. Nippon Chemi-con do have a type called RWE which is available rated up to 550Vdc which you may just get away with, considering that you may not get 565V with the circuit load in place. Don't forget this is the working voltage and any electro should be run as close to the working voltage as possible for longest life. The smallest value in the RWE range is 100uF and the full part number is RWE-550-LG-100-M-C-A5. I suspect they are not cheap.

The alternative suggested by Jeff is a good one, as there are many types available that have a full plastic covering which protects probing fingers from those nasty little electrons.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


 |  IP: Logged

Jeff Stricker
Master Film Handler

Posts: 481
From: Calumet, Mi USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-13-2002 07:41 AM      Profile for Jeff Stricker   Email Jeff Stricker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, Cap input works. You're gonna need more "C". When I was talking about series capacitor hook ups, I guess I was picturing your using tubular axial leaded (leads coming out each end) insulated capacitors that would be beneath the chassis thus eliminating any chance of getting a shock. Anyway good luck, I'm interested in hearing your progress - I really like those homebrew projects!

 |  IP: Logged

Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 02-14-2002 06:21 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
BTW Paul, I didn't answer your question. I have used the odd bi-polar electro for constant polarised dc voltages up to about 100V without problems. There is no obvious reason why your 440Vac motor start caps shouldn't do the job, provided the voltage rating is RMS and not PEAK. If this is unknown, I would be concerned that it may be a peak rating, particularly if it is made for the US market. To be on the safe side, stand in another room when you switch on the power

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

 |  IP: Logged

Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 02-14-2002 07:42 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul,

The parts supplier that I was thinking of was THE PARTS CONNECTION, which was a part of Sonic Frontiers Intl. Their web address is WWW. The Parts Connection. com. (space between words). I just looked at their web site, and unfortunealtely SFI has decided, after 14 years, to close them down ! This was truly a popular company that supplied many high end parts and kits for both vacume tube and solid state systems (including transformers) Their catalogue is still on line. It would be wise of you to download, as it will give you a good general idea of what parts are available so that you can contact the manufacturer direct.

Among other things is a WE300B amp kit. A matched pair of the new 300Bs now being made again is about $800.00 or so....

 |  IP: Logged

Matthew Bailey
Master Film Handler

Posts: 461
From: Port Arthur,TX
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 02-14-2002 09:07 PM      Profile for Matthew Bailey   Email Matthew Bailey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My dad has something he knoes about from his experience as an electrnics/communications tech. Instead of using a non-polarized cap arrangement,use a bi-polarized cap arrangement. This is done by taking two or more caps & connecting them in parallel with the +
end of one connected to the - end of the other. The other end of the two caps are connected in the same manner.

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-14-2002 09:31 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 

Indeed, The Parts Connection is closing their doors for good quite soon. They are still selling what ever stock they have on hand though. The best place to go in the USA is Michael Percy Audio. Check out his site at... http://www.percyaudio.com/
He has a similar selection as Parts connection does(did).

When I was in Toronto Gord was kind enough to guide me to Parts Connection a couple of times. They will be sorely missed in the DIY Audio Community.
Mark @ GTS


 |  IP: Logged

Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 02-15-2002 11:58 AM      Profile for Jeff Taylor   Email Jeff Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
FWIW: Triode Electronics has Tesla and Electro Harmonix 300B's. Depending on brand, a matched pair will set you back $140-$180. Now, if you want to talk NOS WE's.....

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-16-2002 04:37 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul,
Here is smore good reading for you to dive into. http://www.capacitors.com/pickcap/pickcap.htm
Mark @ GTS


 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)  
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.