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Topic: Is digital sound worth it for me?

Brad Allen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 688
From: Evansville, IN, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 02-12-2002 07:26 PM

I have a 3 plex, all mono (no flaming please

)
I have a 196 seat auditorium, a 155 seater, and a 90 seater.
I want to upgrade the sound, but can't justify $25,000 per screen to do digital. And I have been told that digital is over kill for my small house's. What's the opinion of this group?
Any good used inexpensive ways to accomplish digital?
Any other suggestions appreciated.
Thank you!

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-12-2002 07:32 PM

I would recomend good optical stereo that is upgradable to digital
That is important since in some markets that can make the difference in getting a print or not
Smart Devices manufactures mny good economical packaged systems or any good engineer can prepare a package for you
there is also a lot of good used equipment available as well but again make sure it doesn't limit you in the future

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-12-2002 08:42 PM

Maybe you would get more bang for the buck with Dolby SR optical. It can sound *very* good.

------------------
- dave
Look at this! His chin strap has been cut!

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-12-2002 08:44 PM

There is a lot of good quality used sound equipment on the market. How about considering one screen with digital and the other two with Dolby SR? Whatever you do, make sure to get a good quality processor like the Dolby CP65 so you can effortlessly upgrade to digital later.

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Jon Bartow
Master Film Handler

Posts: 287
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 02-12-2002 08:48 PM

I agree with Gordon go to a good optical stereo setup first. Perhaps a way to soften the finacial blow would be the following steps:
-Start with a Ultra-Stereo JSX-1000 series processor for each house.
(I don't know what you have now, If you are using a self contained system like the Kelmar AS-8800 system then you will need a power amp to power the existing Center speaker.)
-Next add surround speakers/amplifier. It's better if you don't skimp on amps and speakers. If you do it will hurt the overall quality of your sound later on. Especially if you want digital sound someday down the road. Buy good speakers and amps such as JBL speakers and QSC amps.
This will make your setup a center/surround (or front/back) setup.
-Next add a Left and Right speaker (with amps of course

-Then a Subwoofer (small theaters like yours will not need a big sub, but it will be necessary if you want digital later.
-Then digital sound which would more or less just "plug-in" (with the proper alignment of course) at this point.

-If you don't already have a stereo solar cell in each house than that is the first thing to upgrade (a stereo cell will work with an existing mono setup) for better optical freq. response a LED reverse scan reader would be nice (and a requirement at some point if the industrie's threat ever comes true)

Of course any equipment listed above is only a suggestion there are several manufacturers that make suitable equipment. But the above steps could be done over the course of several months or years with each step offering "improved" sound
Jonathan Bartow

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Christopher Duvall
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 500
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 02-13-2002 05:26 AM

I have to go with Brad on the Dolby CP65 unit. It is affordable, sounds great when properly tweaked and it can be easily upgraded to digital at a later time frame.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-13-2002 05:37 AM

I agree with Brad on the CP-65, however there is actually a better processor available on the market and that is the Panastereo. Its is sold through Smart dealers. This processor blows the socks off any other unit out there, no holds barred! The CP-65 (very unfortunately) is no longer produced and a new Panastereo can be bought for a little more than a CLEAN used LATE model CP-65 can. Buying the Panastereo will get you the very latest in high quality analog performance and it has noise reduction that is every bit as good as the real stuff you'd get in a CP-65.

Once you have great analog capability you could hunt around for a used DA-20-CAT 700/701 system, or a used DTS processor. Either unit will interface easily to the Panastero and you'll have better performance and save $$ at the same time.

Be sure to upgrade to a RED LED reverse scanner when you install any new processor so you will be able to take advantage of everything that is recorded on an analog SR track, this is very important.
Mark @ GTS

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-13-2002 06:43 AM

Wait! No one has asked the original poster the _real_ questions; What types of films do you show? (If not first run, what is the condition? Do they come with DTS disks? Are the digital tracks playable? Are the films even _in_ digital?) What is your competition? (The answer will be different if his theatre is 200 miles away from every other theatre or if he's right next to a newly constructed gigaplex with full digital sound in all houses.)

In most cases, I'd vote for an upgrade to Dolby SR (or good non-Dolby equivalent; I've not heard the Panastereo stuff, but I'll trust that it's decent). There's nothing worse than a cheap digital installation. It's better to put the money into a good optical processor, amps, and loudspeakers and maintain that system well. Don't go cheap on installation or maintenance; find someone who really knows this stuff inside and out. Dolby SR can sound great and you will never have to worry about unplayable tracks.

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Brad Allen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 688
From: Evansville, IN, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 02-13-2002 05:01 PM

Thanks all, lots of good suggestions to think over. How much less expensive would a Panastereo processor be than a CP650?
And Scott, to answer you...40 miles from nearest Digital theater.
Owned by a chain to say the least that does NOT use (or understand) Brad's line "film done right". If you know what I mean.

Put it this way, they supposedly have digital (2 yr old complex) but you sure couldn't tell it by listening.
I'm first run 60-65% of the time, 2-3 weeks off the break 25% of the time. More than 3 weeks remainder.
Hadn't thought about digital tracks being trashed on older prints.
How big of a problem is DD tracks being ruined?

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 02-13-2002 07:14 PM

DD tracks hold up better than SDDS tracks. The data spots on the film print are quite a bit larger. DTS is really good, provided you can get the film distributors to give you discs for any DTS supported release. Sometimes that is hit and miss, but there are a lot of small town DTS-equipped theaters in Oklahoma that do okay on getting the discs. Dolby Digital is good otherwise. There is a very tiny town in western Oklahoma called Cordele, and they have a 2nd run theater that was restored, THX certified and Dolby CP-500 equipped.

As Brad said earlier, there is a lot of used equipment on the market right now and some that is in the form of digital sound players. Some circuits will try to consolodate good equipment from closed theaters to ones deserving upgrades, but you could get lucky.

I might have missed it if someone else posted this point, but how good are your auditoriums at containing sound? That is going to be a very critical item on whether you can upgrade all 3 screens to digital versus just doing 1 and putting SR/A stereo in the others. Wall treatment is a must for containing the rumbling sub-bass from digital surround sound.

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Brad Allen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 688
From: Evansville, IN, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 02-13-2002 09:09 PM

No sound what so ever leaks now. But I'm aware digital is a differant animal. The walls were built staggered stud, double sheet rock. And sound board on the Steel studs under the sheet rock.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-13-2002 09:21 PM

If it is possible raise the level of sound in the theatre to around 100db (measured with a radio shack spl meter) and then measure it in the adjacent aud to find the ratio of bleed through
That makes a simple starting point

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-13-2002 10:13 PM

Brad, be careful what you type. The Dolby CP650 is an entirely different processor than the Dolby CP65! Expect to pay $3000ish for the CP65. From the sound of your situation, buying a brand new CP650 would not be a very smart decision. Also be forewarned that there are different variations of the CP65. Whatever you do make sure one you get has SR. (Even a CP65 with SR has two options there.) I've never had the pleasure of playing with a Panastereo, so I can't comment there, but I'm a bit leery of getting a non-Dolby processor until I can play with one and listen for myself. The CP65 is one of the finest units around for SR and handles digital with ease.

Also, the phrase "film done right" was actually coined by the Kodak man himself, John Pytlak. Most people around here live by those words.

On the prints you get now, what is the percentage of cans that arrive without dts discs? If it's more than one every few months or so, you probably don't want dts since you don't always open films on the break. SRD is on everything and SDDS is on most everything. (Pay no attention to Mark Gulbrandsen when he comes on in a bit and says not to even consider SDDS. )

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Jacob Huber
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 172
From: Evansville, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 02-13-2002 11:01 PM

Hey Brad, what theatre do you operate, because I work for Showplace Cinemas, which is the theatre chain I think you are referring to. If so, I completely understand what you mean by not understanding "Film Done Right". I normally work at the North Side theatre (9 screen) and none of our films have a single scratch, or anything that would detract even the most lay patron's attention from the entertainment they paid for. The East location (18 screen) has horrid presentation quality. I saw "In the Bedroom" last nite, and it was pretty much trashed, there was even nacho cheese on the screen. We have 12 screens in the "old" section, and about 14 films, all of which are scratched. The other 6 screens have no scratches on them. I've taken this up with management, and they don't seem to care. It really angers me that they would scratch "Brotherhood of the Wolf" the day we got it.

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Brad Allen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 688
From: Evansville, IN, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 02-14-2002 12:26 AM

Opps, Thanks Brad. I had looked at Dolby's site and that extra 0 was inserted into my brain I guess.

And more often than not, the DTS Disk's are missing, even on first runs. I never seriously considered DTS for this very reason. My booker say's he's always fighting because DTS disks are missing from first runs. Biggest percentage are the films delivered by everyone's favorite courier, Technicolor.

Jacob, No offense, but I'd rather not say what theater I'm connected with. Actually, I was not refering to Showplace operations, but I know for a fact they qualify for my comments in spades and have for years. Are you a projectionist for them? If so, you have my deepest sympathy.
And nope, their management could care less. They never have. I can remember getting films circuited from the North side, that was completely un-playable. Several times, films came from them that had yards, and yards of sprocket holes ripped out. It was bad enough, I finally started refusing to take films circuited from them. If that's the print I had to take, forget it. I didn't want the film. Simply amazing.

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