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Topic: How many of you run 6000' changeovers?

Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 02-15-2002 10:12 AM

I am always surprised at the number of prints I receive that seem to have just come off of 6000' reels. Granted, most of these are older films, but I don't hear too much about people running this way. How many of you do run 6000' changeovers and why? (Not why as in "Why do you do something so dumb?", but why as in "Why not run 2000' reels or a platter/tower?") I'm just curious.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-15-2002 11:18 AM

Two other single-screeners withing 75 miles of here ran 6000' until recently. One switched to platter just last year, the other switched about 3 years ago.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 02-15-2002 11:52 AM

Joe Beres said: "How many of you do run 6000' changeovers and why? (Not why as in "Why do you do something so dumb?", but why as in "Why not run 2000' reels or a platter/tower?") I'm just curious."

Rather than purchase platters and an automation system, theatres with only one or a few screens already having two projectors per screen may have decided to "automate" by simply using 6000-foot reels to allow an hour or so between changeovers. Could even get away with keeping carbon arcs that allowed a 1-hour trim. Works great on paper, but many of these "conversions" to 6000 foot reels did not pay enough attention to maintaining the proper low tension on the film, per SMPTE Recommended Practice RP 106. The simple friction clutches used for 2000-foot reels usually leads to erratic and often excessive tension when handling a 6000-foot roll.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 585-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 585-722-7243
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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 02-15-2002 11:56 AM

There are some operators that don't like breaking down on the MUT. Film gets spooled onto the 6K reels and broken down at the bench. This could account for reel orientation.

I used to run 5K or 6K at the drive-ins until late in the season when it was stub burning time.

Not to twist the subject to much, why did Norelco have reel cases that fit a 5K reel but not a 6K?

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 02-15-2002 01:38 PM

The reason I DON'T run on 6000ft reels is because if I were going to go through the trouble of making up a print on a long playing reel, I might as well go all the way to a platter or one of those Eprad monster reel transports.

Fact is, we have 6000ft magazines originally designed for 3D interlock and a bunch of very good 6000ft floating hub reels, but I never use them, precisely for the reason John pointed out -- I find the design of the take-up friction/slip cluch not nearly accurate enough to keep a safe tension on the film. When you set it to turn a full 6000ft reel, the pull on the film when the reel is empty is much too tight. If you set it to allow a gentle tension on the nearly empty reel, you may find film all over the floor as the reel fills to capacity.

I would probably look more favorably on making up 6000ft reels if I could use a takeup that was designed specifically for this size reel or my existing takeups could be modified to be driven by a separate motor whose torque could be controlled by the tension required to wind the film safely.

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Tom Sauter
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 163
From: Buffalo, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 02-15-2002 02:20 PM

I'll run 6000' changeovers when I'm showing a print more than once or twice, or if there are so many films in a series that I just don't have enough 2000' house reels. This can also give me time to prep the next print or break the last one down. It doesn't really add much time to makeup or teardown (maybe 20 minutes total). You save that time because you don't end up threading projectors constantly.

I like running 6000 footers in the unlikely event that a projector goes down. Losing a show here is not an option for our clients, so I can just throw in an intermission. I don't think that they mind 5 minutes while I rethread instead of writing off the whole night as a loss!

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Wes Hughes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 02-15-2002 03:19 PM

A LOT of smaller theatres and mini-plexes still use 6000's. Most of them are also using xenons. I have seen booths with modern projectors, sound equipment, and automation (most newer automations can run changeovers either out of the box or with factory and/or field modifications) that are running hour long changeovers. With polyester, you can fit a lot more than an hour on a reel sometimes also.

Joe: Why on earth would you run 20mins when you could run 80min changeovers?!

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Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 02-15-2002 04:13 PM

Wes,
If I was running a film once or twice, I wouldn't waste the time making up and breaking down the print. I don't think you really would save that much time. If I was running a film several times, I would prefer running on a platter. Mainly for the reasons that John and Frank mentioned, but also to eliminate the need for any changeover and rewinding the reels after each show. I can maybe understand running 6000' for lack of funds for a platter system, but I can't imagine that a used platter system is that expensive or hard to come by.

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Barry Hans
Film Handler

Posts: 92
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 02-15-2002 05:06 PM

We run 6000' reels. Many of the prints we run can not be cut so we very often run 2000' reels. I think if we were to run a platter we would'nt be able to run some of the archival stuff out there. I personally like the idea of running reels. You are just that much more involved with the presentation which I like and missed running multiplexes. I am always checking tension on feed arms and take up clutches and regularly take apart, clean/ lubricate and adjust them. I wish there was a "miracle lube" for the felt clutch pads. They get about as dirty and grime-y as anything I've ever worked on, with maybe the exception of the back of a projector loaded with grease and belt shavings. I have tried using many different lubricants on felt clutches and nothing seems to lessen how dirty they get, it probally is do to the felt breaking down as much as anything. We also are proud owners

of a Eprad mut we use when we do special park shows. If there was ever a Rube Goldberg design it was the double mut! In it's defense, it works perfectly.

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Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 02-15-2002 05:51 PM

Haha. The double MUT is quite the contraption. We have one too. I hate the thing, but it always comes through when we have a projector go down.

I have one question for you, Barry. Your set-up makes sense for 6000'. Is there room in your booth for a platter, too? I assume not, as I haven't seen a changeover booth that was big enough for two projectors and a platter, but I am curious.

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German Marin
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 227
From: Verbania (VB), Italy
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 02-15-2002 08:51 PM

I've run 6000' one entire day at an old theatre (now closed, it's being changed for a 3plex). I went there 'cause the only projectionist needed a rest for one day. The projectors were Simplex XL. The movie was "Lautrec" from France. I liked that experience, I though work with changeover would be hard but really it's interesting and keep us concentrate on screen presentation (people using changeover always looks at the screen at least four times per show while people working with platters just look at screen at start and the end of each run).

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Barry Hans
Film Handler

Posts: 92
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 02-15-2002 11:47 PM

Joe- Our booth is pretty small. At one time years ago the theatre had a Super Simplex and Drive In platter in there. We have the 35mm's and a Eiki 6000 and there is very little port wall left.

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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 02-15-2002 11:52 PM

We run 6000 ft. Reasons? Its already here and paid for. Works damned well. The ancient Simplex take up clutches have a plastic disc which works better than felt. A little TLC keeps it all working well. There are a lot of films distributors (Warner Classics is one) that wisely prohibit exibition on platters and we run a lot of them. We do a couple festival every year that would be a real pain in the ass to on a platter. One of those has eleven features and 9 shorts run from Friday evening thru Sunday after noon plus our regular evening second run shows. The festivals I run on 2000 ft. and rewind back onto cores. In short, while platters can run films damage free, for whatever reason it doesn't seem to happen often and the distributors of many classics and imports are beginning to realize it, and are requireing that their product not be run on them.

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Richard C. Wolfe
Master Film Handler

Posts: 250
From: Northampton, PA, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 02-16-2002 12:51 AM

I've had my present single screen theatre for over thirty one years now and still use and will always use reel to reel. Of course when I aquired the theatre in 1970 it had 2000' reels along with carbon arc. In 1976 I converted it to 6000' reels with xenon lamps and those wonderful little Eprad co-operators for automated changeovers. Everything has performed well ever since. They require little time to operate or maintain. Being an owner operator which means I'm the manager operator I want to be on the floor of the theatre when it's busy which is when the shows change. I don't want to be in the booth threading up the next show when I'm needed most downstairs. With 6000' reels you never have to spend time in the booth other then to start the show, and that can be done from downstairs too if you really want it to. The first show is threaded up, the music started, the lights set... all just before opening the doors for the first evening show. Half way through that show the changeover takes place, and at that point I go upstairs and watch the changeover... "just in case". It always works, or at least 99.999999% of the time. On those VERY rare occassions that it didn't work, it was always human error... whoops forgot to set the switch to "Ready". That's probably happened a dozen times in the past twenty six years since I automated. Even then, you just push the manual button once you realize that the 2nd projector didn't start and manually make the changeover (yes, I watch for the cues), possibly missing by a second or two. I don't think a dozen times in thirty one years is too bad a record. After the changeover, I put the reel on the rewinder and go back to the office. There is a staircase that goes directly from my office to the booth. I'm only five seconds away. After the rewinding is done... it stops automaticlly, I rethread the projector. Now it's all ready for the next show. I don't have to go up there at the end of the show and rethread like I would have to do if I had a platter. I can be down where I'm needed untill the actual starting time. Also if I want to add or change a trailer, or add a cartoon, short, or whatever, it takes only a few minutes as it's very easy to do. I have never had a problem with take up other then a belt breaking. The film takes up evenly and tight. Naturally I've never thrown a print, and never have film end up on the floor for any reason. My prints stay in good condition and have far less chance of being damaged with this system. When I play classics, which isn't that often, I can get better prints because they always ask if I have reel to reel, and tell me that they give the best prints to reel to reel houses because there is less chance for damage with reel to reel.

However, the number one reason that I will not change to a platter is reliability. I have nothing against platters per say as I have had a number of theatres over the years with them. Properly used and maintained they will serve well, BUT... just think for a moment, is there anything mechanical that you own that NEVER breaks down? How about your car, your washer or dryer, heating system, dishwasher... they all break down at some point no matter how well they are maintained. And so does projection equipment. A projection system is just like a chain... only as good as the weakest link. Blow a bulb, strip a gear, lose a platter or projector motor, blow the power supply or even a exhaust fan and you're out of business. It's refund time! And it always happens on Saturday night during the 7 o'clock round. This website is filled with posts of stories of various booth and projection/sound disasters of every sort. Almost every one of them would not have happened or could have been rectified quickly on a reel to reel system.

The bottom line is that in thirty one and a half years of operation with reel to reel I have NEVER, please let me say that again... NEVER given a pass or refund for a lost show, as I have never had a lost show. Have I had breakdowns... YES, of course I have. But, I'm back on the screen within two or three minutes on the other projector. How many of you with platters can make that statement?

Now having said all that, I will agree that I wouldn't want to run a 15 plex with all reel to reels with only one operator. But in a single or a twin... 6000' reels is the best way to go.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-16-2002 02:30 AM

I must point out one very important argument here. If a show stops for any reason, even if only for 2-3 minutes, the entire audience should be refunded. Hence, even with reel to reel there may not be "lost shows", but there is still "lost revenue". Your customers are important. If something goes wrong moreso than a second or two of black at the changeover, you owe it to them to refund their money. At least that's the way I see it.

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