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Author Topic: Need for delay in surrounds with digital?
Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-22-2002 06:16 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dolby analog surround is delayed so that the bleed, especially of dialogue from the front channels is "masked" by the audio illusion of no sound being there if it arrives at your ear slightly later than the front sound (your ear being the spot the tech was standing when he aligned the system -- everywhere else it sucks). The only sound (in theory) that you will hear when the surrounds are delayed properly will be that which is not present in the front channels.

But what happens with digital -- or even mag for that matter, where the surround channel are descrete? Logic would dictate that there would then be no need for the delay, except for really large theatres where you need delay just so that the surround audio doesn't arrive at the ear significantly later than the front sound, otherwise you wind up with an echo. I have Eventide delays for the two surround channels with two outputs, one for the orchestra and one for the balcony. Both are set first to make the surround sound arrive at the same time as the front sound, in each of the two distances. Then when aligning the CP50, the Eventides are used to increase the delay for the needed additional lag value from the arrival time of the front channels (as per standard Dolby setup). In this setup the CP is not used to set the delay. So, With DTS, do the settings for the surrounds have to be changed so the delay units DON'T add lag between the front and rear, i.e., the surrounds should be timed so that sounds from the rear arrive at the same time as the front sounds at the mean test point?

Does DTS, Dolby (re: SRD) and/or Sony discuss the need (or not) for delay in the surround channels?

Hmmm, this doesn't sound like I am explaining it clearly. Anyone understand what I am talking about?

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-22-2002 09:42 AM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In my screeniing room (tiny) I set the delay on "1" and it seems to give it a more spacious sound and I like it a lot more. Just thought I'd throw that in.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1714
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-22-2002 02:03 PM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I asked this question of Lonny Jennings when he installed our first Dolby Digital unit at the Greenwood in 1992 or 1993. His response was that no, delay wasn't needed in digital systems but in the interest of keeping things working the same way going through the processor that delay was factored in to the digital sound so that it sounded normal when the surrounds were delayed in the CP65. This also alowed the B-chain to remain the same for Analoque and Digital sound in regards to room size.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-22-2002 03:39 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Haas effect still is there even in digital that although cross talk is not an issue the same information could be recorded in a screen and a surround channel producing an echo.
So there is a delay adjustment
MAG and DTS actually have a offset built in that dates back to fox'w specs back in the 50's for cinemascope and I can't remember what it is

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-23-2002 05:08 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Makes sense. I think with surround delay, your ears are the best judge. Whatever is right for the analog, I'll just leave for the DTS. If I hear echo, I can always back it off with the Eventides. The balcony was the big question because that has much longer delay, in addition to the CP.

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-23-2002 09:00 PM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon

You mean the DTS itself has a delay or relies on the delay of the CP-whatever.

John


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-23-2002 09:05 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
DTS and Mag have the delay recorded into them as a fixed amount somehow 1.5 frames rings a bell

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Karen Hultgren
Master Film Handler

Posts: 492
From: Agoura Hills, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 02-25-2002 11:51 AM      Profile for Karen Hultgren   Author's Homepage   Email Karen Hultgren   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When we transfer the soundtrack into DTS, we put in surround delay (so, it's already done on the discs).

Karen at DTS

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 02-26-2002 03:36 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In theory, Digital requires 10 to 20mS less surround delay than optical but as has already been pointed out, the centre-to-surround crosstalk is not an issue, so the setting is not as critical as it is for optical.

The DA20 has adjustable digital surround delay and the setup procedure is described on page 4.3 of the installation manual. With CP500 and 650 there are separate adjustments for optical and digital surround delay although the 650 can automatically calculate the digital delay from the analog setting.

DTS has an in-built fixed delay of 50mS (which as Karen has stated is on the discs, not in the player). If you have a big theatre and need more, then with most analog processors you have to add it externally.

SDDS DFP-D3000 uses the same setting for both optical and digital surround delay.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

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