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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » I GOT A FILM-TECH PRINT!!!! (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: I GOT A FILM-TECH PRINT!!!!
James R. Hammonds, Jr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 931
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 02-23-2002 04:32 AM      Profile for James R. Hammonds, Jr   Email James R. Hammonds, Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We re-opened MOULIN ROUGE this weekend.

After loading reel 1, i noticed that the tail was secured using a single sided splice with no ID frame left on the tail.
I counted the frames from the last changeover cue.
24 EXACTLY!!!

I thought to myself "This print looks like it was biult by someone who read BIULDING 101."

At the end of reel 2, I noticed it was originally biult with an Ultrasonic splicer.
It was also at this moment that I realized that this print had FILMGUARD on it.

"Could this be....?" I thought to myself.
"No way!" I thought again.

I made a call.
I found out that the print came from none other than the UA GALAXY in Dallas!
I was told that the print played there for two months and then sat in the depot till it came to me.

I had never seen a print in such excellent condition and was very pleased at the guys (and possible gals?) at the GALAXY for taking good care of this print.

I did not screen this print myself, but did peek at a few seconds of it and it looked great.
The person who screened the print asked me beforehand if it was used and at first rolled his eyes, but I told him the excellent condition it came in and he was relieved.

I asked him how the print looked afterwards and he said it looked really good.

Thanks to you guys for taking such good care of this film.

FILM DONE RIGHT at its finest.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-23-2002 02:59 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No ID frame it would be sent right back from here

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-23-2002 05:30 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Too much trouble to look for the changeover cue 24 frames ahead, Gordon?

I'm glad you got a good, COMPLETE print, James. I hope you and your guys keep it that way.


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-23-2002 05:48 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No trouble at all Joe I just don't trust that the right leaders were attached to each reel
Also how did you notice that it was built originally with an ultrasonic splicer.
To unassemble the print that was sonicaly spliced there would be a loss of 2 frames where the splice was cut out


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Tim Sherman
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 125
From: North Ridgeville, OH, USA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 02-23-2002 06:31 PM      Profile for Tim Sherman   Author's Homepage   Email Tim Sherman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would have to agree with gordon on this one. I like to see 1 id frame left on the leaders, both the head and tails. The reason is just that i don't trust many of the other operators out there. I also work at a drive-in and and unfortunatly can't prescreen the movies we show. So if they are built wrong they will show too my customers. So when i get prints like this i have to do one of a couple things. Either call technicolor and have them fax me a sheet with all the id frames, call my booker to get them from ets, or just refuse the print and get a replacement. I think i would trust prints from just about everyone on this forum because just being a member here shows that you care.

------------------

http://www.autoramadrivein.com

come on out to the drive-in and spend a night out with the stars"
ME!!

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
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 - posted 02-23-2002 06:54 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When a film is built ultrasonically there is no frame loss. Same goes for breaking it down. You don't use an ultrasonic splicer breaking it down So there are not any more loss of frames. I can stand 1 ID frame without complaint but NO MORE!

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-23-2002 06:59 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A ultrasonic splice is an overlap slice and as such it has to be cut out. If one cuts down the centre of it any tape splice made later will have a problem unless they cut it out. The same holds true for cement splices

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-23-2002 07:01 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How can there _not_ be frame loss when breaking down an ultrasonically spliced print? I've never actually worked with an ultrasonic splicer, but if it's anything like a cement splicer, there would necessarily be a loss of frames at breakdown.

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James R. Hammonds, Jr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 931
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 02-23-2002 09:09 PM      Profile for James R. Hammonds, Jr   Email James R. Hammonds, Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe Brad can explain how to separate an ultrasonic splice without frame loss since he's the one that uses them, but I have been curious of this also.
But judging from this print, it looks as if it IS possible.
Also, I did not chop off those frames and the splices I made to join the reels were just as good as any "cut" splice.
We also leave ONE ID frame, but since this one was already cut without ID franes I just left it that way.
I will also make sure that I am the one who breaks it down so that the heads and tails are attached to the correct reels.
As far as not knowing whether or not the heads were attached to the proper reel, the soundtrack is ahead of the picture and should match up, shouldn't it?


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 02-23-2002 10:00 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Do you mean match across the splice? Perhaps to some degree but you're dealing with a different moment in time so not necessarily.

Where things will match is that the track extending 20 frames or so out onto the head leader is identical to the last 20 frames of track on the prior reel due to the sound pull-up. (This pull-up on the end of the reel is what plays when the splice has passed the gate but hasn't yet hit the soundhead--otherwise you'd have about a second of silence.) Of course if it's silent or the modulation is hard to distinguish it may be hard to tell.

Anyway, the track would be something to check if you suspected a problem, but by then you'd probably have already called someone to get info on heads & tails. Proponents of leaving a "check frame" would argue that it's so blatantly obvious that it automatically calls attention to itself when it's wrong. More than likely, without them you'd presume that the identity is correct and hope for the best.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-23-2002 11:38 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Stop your whining Gordon. I know you are a better operator than that. Joe, you've worked with ultrasonic splices before and you know there is no frame loss on breakdown. Don't let him try to bs you into believing that there is.

If a print is originally assembled with an ultrasonic splice, that splice can be cut using a normal tape splicer with NO frame loss. Now since the great majority of the world is fearful of not leaving an ID frame, if they choose they can just leave that first frame attached to the leaders as the print comes to them and cut one frame over when they re-build the print, thus their presentation would be like the "original" presentation where 2 frames were lost at the reel change and they have an ID frame on each leader. When we break down prints, we do not break them down using an ultrasonic splicer. We cut right down the center of that splice and then lay a single sided tape splice across the joint. If the next theater who is going to play the film is going to preserve the frames, they can simply rejoin them together and lay tape down. Since I know of no other theater that has an ultrasonic splicer in their booth for 35mm film splicing, the odds of a print that I play going to a theater that intends to assemble it with an ultrasonic splicer are basically zero. Thus, there IS NO FRAME LOSS! It works fine and dandy like this. Note James' comment above "Also, I did not chop off those frames and the splices I made to join the reels were just as good as any "cut" splice", so again, stop your whining Gordon.

I would also like to add that there are actually a LOT of people, and I do mean a LOT of people who care enough to not leave an ID frame on the leaders. This is not just me with this practice. If everyone recalls, I came up with the idea of posting ID frames on this website well before TES stole the idea from me and offered it on their own. I tried, but the studios were too worried about copyright infringement from those frames.

To the other ID frame whiners here, take a look at the joined heads/tails to the reel of film. Every and I do mean EVERY single reel of film is just a little bit different. Look at the SDDS track. Look at the SRD track. Glancing at these two will very obviously show whether the correct leaders are on the correct reel. Anyone who has ever had 2 prints of the same title in the complex and accidentally broken down a print with leaders from the "other" can knows the colors do not match up. If that still isn't enough for Gordon and other whiners out there, look at the analog track. It should be very obvious that the leaders match up. For anyone still whining, look at the edgecode. Those are like a serial number and can further be used as verification that the print was broken down correctly. ID frames are not necessary. If anything, they at least ensure that someone with minimal brain power is working in that next booth who gets the print. (And we all know that is something we need more of!)

Anyone who thinks I am incorrect, feel free to bring me down a print with it's leaders on randomly and watch as I build it perfectly on the first shot without any more than 5 minutes extra time being spent on the film makeup process. And that is even assuming you have managed to put EVERY single leader on a WRONG reel. This isn't rocket science here guys. If you are smart enough to tell the difference between the base side of the film vs. the emulsion side of the film, then you are MORE than smart enough to match up leaders.

A year or so ago someone recommended leaving an ID frame ONLY on the "heads" of the reels. That was an interesting compromise and one that I had hoped people in general would have listened to. However, there is nothing anyone on this forum can say will get me to change my practice of preserving EVERY frame on the print, so you guys can knock your whining off right now.

I'm just thankful that the print went to a theater that cares enough to take care of it! Those Moulin Rouge prints that I had were incredible and I know they both shipped out in much better condition than when I got them. It is nice to know that James it taking care of it instead of some bozo. James, perhaps you could post that print number? Also, did each reel come to you sealed in plastic liners, or did ETS remove them?


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Christopher Seo
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 530
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-24-2002 12:02 AM      Profile for Christopher Seo   Email Christopher Seo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad, I believe you additionally told me it is possible to remake a cut ultrasonic splice ultrasonically? If not, that would be the only problem with ultrasonic splicers in an ideal world... if everyone had them, two frames would be lost on each build-up.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-24-2002 12:04 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Nope, once an ultrasonic splice has been cut, you can only re-assemble those 2 frames with tape (like James did to continue to preserve every frame of the feature).

To remake the splice with another ultrasonic splice, you must lose 2 frames. But again, find me a dollar house that has an ultrasonic splicer and I'll give it 1/2 of a second of consideration.

Chris, when you visited, did you sit through a reel change and notice how perfect and flawless the changeover was with the ultrasonic splices? That reason alone is why I spent the $3200 on the unit, and the improvements it makes in the presentation was worth every dollar.


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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-24-2002 12:33 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's been awhile and I couldn't remember the evidence for not losing a frame, so I had to concede until you popped up. Took you long enough

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Wes Hughes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 02-24-2002 02:03 AM      Profile for Wes Hughes   Email Wes Hughes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cutting a frame off the beginning of a reel is something I have worried about for 30 seconds in my 19 years of handling film.

Its ONE frame. I do hate when people cut off multiple frames, which are left hanging to the head with serveral one-sided splices in a chain...but ONE frame is not something for the non-extremely-anal-perfectionist person to worry about

Even the BEST changeover projectionist will miss a frame or two on changeover...either that or a half-second or so of black. I'd rather overrun the changeover a few frames than miss it and have any black.

On another note, aren't reels always cut so that a changeovers occur where a few lost frames won't be a problem (ie scene changes)...at least most of the time?????


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