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Topic: White runner strips in Kiniton film trap

Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 04-27-2002 07:41 PM

I've used the Kinoton FP23C before. I've seen theaters that have replaced the white plastic runners, which are subject to wear and regular replacement, with steel runners that were custom made locally.

My current theater has the PK60D, with the same plastic runners. I mentioned the idea of steel runners to my GM. He's concerned - and I tend to agree - that there is a reason they are plastic. Just what is that reason? Would replacing them with steel runners cause any damage to the film? For that matter, would it void the warranty? thx.

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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-27-2002 08:05 PM

The plastic runners are actually made of Delrin which is a self lubricating plastic. As such they allow a very gentle controled passage of the film through the trap
The steel runners are actually supossed to have velvet bands glued on them. There were also at one time melamine runners as well for the FP20 serries machines

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Stephen Jones
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Geelong Victoria Australia
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-27-2002 09:11 PM

Ken, I have been a user of Kinoton Projection equipment for many years and think they are a very reliable machine and well built.The reason for the use of these type of gate bands is that they reduce wear on the film mainly the SR.D track,where as steel type bands tend to wear film more easily.This mentioned on the Kinoton web site at www.kinoton.com,there you will find any info on any Kinoton product straight from the horses mouth as they say.Personly I wouldnt use steel bands on Kinotons,the bands are realatively inexpensive and can be reversed to extend thier life.I usually get 12 months out of a set some times a bit longer and you dont need to much gate tension.
Good luck in your new position Ken

Steve

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 04-27-2002 10:07 PM

The delrin handles mylar and green film stock very well....most of the labs we service are Kinoton equipped. The drawback is the gate could be damaged by heat if left open with white light....but then again a good projectionist would not do this.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 04-27-2002 10:17 PM

The runner strips should be changed out as a service item.....much easier than changing out metal pressure bands.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Larry Shaw
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 238
From: Boston, MA, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 04-28-2002 07:10 PM

Ken,

Please don't "make locally" metal runner strips. In addition to all the correct comments in the above posts, the Delrin does not get the film as hot as the metal would and is not subject to nicks, corrosion, etc which damage film. Of course I also can't see doing something like this which would degrade the excellent image stability of this machine. IMHO we should always be trying to improve the presentation, and I don't see how this accomplishes that. As far as warranty, making your own parts would only void the warranty on any items that were adversely affected by the use of non-Kinoton parts.

-Larry

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Larry Shaw
Boston Light & Sound, Inc.
North American Distributor of Kinoton GmbH
290 North Beacon Street
Boston, MA 02135-1990
Tel: 617-787-3131 x104 Fax: 617-787-4257
E-Mail: larry@blsi.com
Web site: http://www.blsi.com/kinoton

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-28-2002 07:23 PM

So do they make delrin bands for the DP70?

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 04-29-2002 04:46 AM

Ken,

What? I have to fight with my cinemeccanica's steel runners every day. I love Kinoton's ones because they're in plastic and they don't make any damage to the print.

And now you want to change them with steel ones???

Ciao
Antonio

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 04-29-2002 08:16 AM

Have you ever priced out the Delrin runners? They are cheap! In fact, the Kinoton has to be the lowest cost projector on regular service items.

BTW, using Film-Guard will extend the life of the Delrin runners...I have a customer that is over a year with them.

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 04-29-2002 11:17 AM

Thanks, guys. I figured there had to be a reason why they were plastic, and now I know what that reason is. No, I personally have not priced the runners, so I have no idea what they cost. I was told by a tech that it gets expensive to replace them regularly, but I guess that's not the case.

So, how do you know when it's time to replace the runners, and also how do you know when it's time to replace the pressure skate?

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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

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Larry Shaw
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 238
From: Boston, MA, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 04-29-2002 12:03 PM

Greg,

Not for the DP-70. Delrin does not have the strength to withstand the tension required in that application. Velvet on the bands can do wonders though.

-Larry

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-29-2002 11:52 PM

The Bauer U-2 had gate bands that were steel with a plastic over them, probably delrin or something to that effect. Those are the only ones I know of and the steel supoprt is why they worked. With Kinoton like Larry says use the factory parts only. There is nothing to gain by using metal runners in that machine, and you'd only lessen the high prerformance of these incredible projectors. The plastic ones are left to right reversable too so you essentially get double life out of them. The runners are a moot point in these machines. You'll never know how many Stainless Steel X-L gate bands I replace just on normal maintainance calls! They're cheap too, and its hardly a factor in overall booth maintainance that you'd feel in the checkbook.
Mark @ GTS

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Stephen Jones
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Geelong Victoria Australia
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-30-2002 04:38 AM

Ken,
I usually replace mine when the gate tension 1/4 way past the 1/2 way mark on the tension indecator. you can usually see how worn the runners are by comparing the used side with the yet unused side.With the skate you can usually see that it is worn.If unsure get a new one and compare the actual area the film runs on.But by this stage the picture becomes unsteady and your tension indicator is past the 1/2 way mark.After a while you get to know when its time to reverse the runners or replace the skate.Uaually if the everything is set up right your skate will last till you have used both sides of the runners thats what I have found with the F.P30's and the FP 50D's.Looking at our records here we replaced our runners and skates after 2 years of operating about 6 months ago that includes reversing the runners once during that time so they last a long time if installed and the skate adjusted per the mannuall.As mementioned you need very little tension to obtain a steady picture,very rarely that I have to adjust the tension only to allow for wear.But it is important to make sure the skate is installed properly or it will wear unevenly as will the runners and cause focus probs.

Steve

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