Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Dynamic Range Limiting

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Topic: Dynamic Range Limiting

Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-20-2002 02:22 PM

Is there a way to limit the dynamic range without loss of fidelity or adding distortion, to a theater sound system?

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 06-20-2002 02:41 PM

Smart's Afterburner will do that, but before someone pops on and says it, do remember that it will destroying what the director and sound mixers intended.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-20-2002 02:57 PM

So is it just a simple compressor that works for 5.1 channels? Or does the Smart product do more than this?

(I'm not sure that I like the thought of having movies sound exactly like every top-40 FM radio station, personally, but I'm sure it has a use somewhere.)

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Jeff Stricker
Master Film Handler

Posts: 481
From: Calumet, Mi USA
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 06-20-2002 05:29 PM

In a noisy environment, a compressor will do an excellent job limiting very loud peaks while bringing up soft dialog and the like. (Room air conditioning, heating fans, etc constitute a noisy situation where compression may be desirable) Obviously this changes the dynamics from what the director intended, but is reasonable if the background ambient noise can't be addressed.

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-20-2002 05:38 PM

What I'm after is very subtle compression. I know it's going to goof up the original intent of the sound mixers, but after hearing what some people had to say about the way some people are mixing soundtracks etc., I'm not so sure some of these tracks couldn't use a little taming.

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 06-20-2002 07:38 PM

Well, Boston Light and Sound has a reverse scan kit for the AAII. You could get that installed, sell your dts unit and run in SR to aleviate the situation.

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Jeff Stricker
Master Film Handler

Posts: 481
From: Calumet, Mi USA
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 06-20-2002 07:38 PM

Greg, There are variable compressors on the market. You are able to adjust the threshold level at which compression begins and also the amount of compression. For example a subtle amount of compression might be 5 dB, whereas very aggressive compression would be 20 - 30 dB. ("20 dB of compression" means that the output is held nearly constant over 20 dB of input change) Normally these units are single or dual (stereo) channel. I haven't seen anything that would do 5 channels. Alot are made for the pseudo-recording semi-professional market and don't cost an arm and a leg. Perhaps someone else on the forum, more up to date on current mfgrs., can steer you to some equipment names.

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Mark Lucas
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 06-20-2002 09:21 PM

So much for the artistic integrity of a soundtrack.

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-20-2002 10:04 PM

Say Mark Lucas
Unless you have something positive to contribute to these discussions, why don't you shut the phug up. I don't think you've really said anything worth reading since you began trolling here.

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-20-2002 11:04 PM

The smart afterburner is a 5 channel limiter compressor with an ajustable threshold and a seperate compressor for the sub
Since it uses a summing detector all the channels are compressed at the same rate maintaining balance
I usually put it in the DTS loop to the processor and set it so that it kicks in just above 300mv

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-21-2002 12:14 AM

Gord
So you can just barely compress with it? (it's adjustable??) I don't want a lot, just a smidge. How's the quality of the unit? Any objectionable artifacts?

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Mark Lucas
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 06-21-2002 02:42 AM

Greg, I'm not going to argue with you. Go "phug" yourself and your soundtrack crippling ideas. That's on topic.

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 06-21-2002 03:39 AM

Heya Greg, I agree with you. Let's keep it on topic. If ya can't say something constructive and on topic, then F**K Off! If I was a worrywart, I would be more concerned about the aspect ratio and screen size than the audio.

Just for reference, 99% of the new video monitors/TVs have a setting that boosts the dialog and/or center channel so it is understandable by using some sorta compression. Also, while limiting/compression is lightly used in FM it is the STANDARD in AM broadcasting. Many theaters do not have the audio amplifier watts (and speakers) to reproduce high-level sound without clipping.... you know, when those pesky "clip" LEDs on the amps light up on the loud passages. I hope that will change in the future. (The systems I have designed have 27 to 35 kW of audio power which seems like an over-kill, but they do not distort and clip and are kick-ass clean)

Anyway Greg, a lot can be said for compression. The old tube-type compressors like the Gates "Level Devil" go for buco bucks and are used in many soundtracks.

While I agree it is desirable to reproduce both the image and the sound as originally intended, there has to be a compromise based on the available venue and media...both in film and video...but the goal is the best it can be.

>>> Phil

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Matt Close
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 226
From: Hervey Bay, QLD, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 06-21-2002 04:56 AM

Mark ... I have to agree with Greg re: the phugging of one's self. It's something you should seriously consider. Correct me if I am wrong people, but I believe Mark has done little other than flame and complain since he appeared on FHF. ...... hmmmmmmm , hang on .... it was about the time of all the heated EP2 discussions wasn't it? Mark Lucas...... George Lucas? ... connection? hmmmm .... What is it you actually 'do' Mark? You call yourself a film handler, yet you list your occupation as 'sleeping'???? If you do actually work in a cinema, I would suggest that 'you' and your 'sleeping attitude' are part of the problem that threatens film ... a medium you obviously have zero passion for! .... which begs the question, why participate in the FILM handler's forum? It also seems to me, and I am sure to others, that you are mis-informed, unwilling to evaluate the pros and cons for 'both' sides of an issue, and your oppinions suffer from what would appear to be the 'tunnel vision' of youth.... I'd be surprised if you are even over the age of 17. *rant over*

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Matt Close
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 226
From: Hervey Bay, QLD, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 06-21-2002 04:59 AM

Oh ... I forgot ... and Greg, re: artifacts... compressors I have used generally suffer from attenuation or 'dulling' of the top end as compression kicks in. I have however, seen some stereo compressors in the P.A. field that offer intelligent 'enhancement' ... basically a top end boost that reacts in conjunction with the amount of compression at any given moment.
The one's without that feature tend to kill things if you are compressing anymore than just a little teeny bit.

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