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Topic: Who here has set up a 2 projector system with a DFP-3000?

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-06-2002 02:44 AM

Please speak up! The DFP-3000 manual certainly isn't.

I have a slightly unusual setup and would appreciate some assistance on a couple of items from anyone (forum member or not) who has set one of these up for changeover operation. I've asked everyone I know and am starting to think this unit has never actually been set up in any fashion other than with a platter or tower.

Flix@film-tech.com

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 07-06-2002 08:10 AM

There are SDDS changeover installations Sony Center in Berlin. Columbia have a very nice screening room which also has a 2 projector installation with the 3000. We are also going to have one soon here at the Alhambra. I haven`t set up any of these, but I have worked with the systems in Sony Center and know them quite well.
I am going to meet the SDDS field engineers on Monday, so please list your questions and I will take them along. I am also going to talk to one of the engineers tonight, if you post your questions here before then I can also include them.
Michael

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-06-2002 05:17 PM

Please ask them to email me! There is nothing in the manual whatsoever on wiring up this unit for changeover, except for the DB37 pinouts, which gives me an idea, but without knowing specifically HOW this machine handles a changeover, doesn't really help. Does it need a changeover command in addition to the motor start sigals? Is there anything in the software I need to set other than the changeover delay? The machine will not acknowledge the 2nd projector.

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 07-06-2002 09:20 PM

Actually the DFP is supposed simply to switch to the second reader after the programmed delay has been triggered by the motor start cue. The wiring has changed at some time in the past, but I don`t remember if this applies to the changeover connections. I believe that is covered in the tech-notes. Also, the processor has been known to be a bit sensitive if the two delays are different, even though it is possible to set them individually. I will tell the SDDS guys when I see them next week and ask them to contact you so you can sort out the details of your specific installation.
Michael

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Stefan Scholz
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 223
From: Schoenberg, Germany
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 07-07-2002 02:35 PM

Brad,

I might be the person to have the most unusual set... 5 projectors, 3 35/70 Bauers, one 16 Bauer and the usual longplay 35 projector for commercial operation.
This setup operates with SDDS 3000 changeover, and it was done the way it was proposed in the quick start guide.
It requires (like a DA 10/ CP 500 etc) a motor start information on the 37 DB connector. Then it should automaticly switch over to the second projector after the time set in the software. In my case it works quite well. There is no need for a dowser information, even though I would love to have dowser controlled X/O. The motor start was introduced to hve full compatibility with the Dolby type control, so that both can use the same information from the projectors. Whatcannot be done is to just play single reels, and hope X-over works, it requests the following reel, for a time code consistancy. If the following reel is not used, it will take additional seconds to synchronize, which can get you mad, one of my friends had to encounter this.
This is why I love dowser controlled X/O, but then the machine must have addional memory to intermiately store digital information from both cameras, and just switch the data stream... a dreram not to come true. Most installations are single projector, and thinking of the recent business in cinema industry, more features will not happen with any brand system.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-07-2002 02:37 PM

Does anyone have this tech note? I don't have it and would greatly appreciate a scan or fax. This really needs to be added to our manual archive as well.

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 07-07-2002 07:41 PM

The tech-note is "TN99042801 New pin definitions for the DFP-D3000 AUTOMATION connector for units having firmware v2.60 and later." It`s included in the tech-notes available for download from SDDS.com. Unfortunately, the changes appear to apply only to pins 34-36 which don`t concern changeover.
There can also be modifications necessary depending on whether you set up the DFP-D3000 as a main processor maybe with a DA20 and dts-6d or if you are using it as an SDDS-only module or in cooperation with a CP500 or similar processors. I have seen a lot of different configurations. In my mind the best way to do it is to use the DFP as a master processor which is also playing analogue and to complete it with a DA20 and a dts-6d on AUX1/2. With that setup, I have never had any problems whatsoever. Well, it`s the setup for which the processor is intended, but the tech-notes deal with all sorts of configurations.
What configuration do you have?
Michael

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-09-2002 02:17 AM

I am putting this update on this thread in the event some other person has a similar situation as I have. The solution is all too simple when you have a DA20 that is functioning properly. (Unfortunately, mine was not.)

WIRING INSTRUCTIONS

DA20 motor start connector J9
Connect pin 1 to a relay triggered by projector 1's "motor on" switch (or automation).

Connect pin 9 to a relay triggered by projector 2's "motor on" switch (or automation).

Connect pin 5 via relay such that pins 5 and 1 are closed whenever projector 1's motor is running, but also so that pins 5 and 9 are closed whenever projector 2's motor is running.

SDDS DFP-3000 DB37 automation connector:
Connect pin 2 to pin 1 of Dolby's J9 connector.
Connect pin 33 to pin 9 of Dolby's J9 connector.
Connect pin 14 *or* 15 to pin 5 of Dolby's J9 connector.

The DA20 has no provision for user adjustable changeover delay. It is set for 7.75 seconds. The DA20 will glitch on you if you do not have your changeover logic connected. The DA20 wants to see that changeover pulse as confirmation of the changeover.

The DFP-3000 has user adjustable settings in the setup software to tell the unit how much delay you want. The Sony doesn't care about an actual changeover pulse. It will do it's changeover X seconds after the incoming projector's motor is started...nice and simple. As my automated changeovers are currently set to 8 seconds, I set the SDDS to 8 seconds as well. This indeed works flawlessly, but 8 seconds is too long if you are going to run things manually. Obviously this is a setting that needs to be determined with each installation, but it was very nice of Sony to include the option.

As for DTS, it just does it's own thing when it sees incoming timecode on the unused reader. It's not perfectly timed, but at least you don't end up accidentally initiating a sound changeover if you are running down the leader on the next reel. I have this system wired up so that my "auto cue run down" motor switch does not affect the sound logic. (Assuming a cue has been put on the leader, this one switch will run the film down and stop at the exact starting point of the leader. ) I suspect *most* changeover installations are wired so that some motor switch somewhere will not initiate a sound changeover, but we'll have to wait for Mr. Guttag to chime in on that one since he is probably single-handedly installing 99% of the 2 projector installations these days.

Oh and by the way, anyone actually setting up a changeover booth...CA21 automations should be mandatory. These automations running in changeover mode are FANTASTIC!!! You can run them manually, or let them run the show for you...and it doesn't take much effort to get those changeovers frame accurate too! If anyone desires to use these units for changeover booths, tell Peter Stefanos at Pennywise that you want the latest "Film-Tech Coupled" EPROM and email me for the wiring specifics and upgrades that the fine folks at Pennywise have programmed into this chip. These are the best automations on the planet. A+++

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-09-2002 02:13 PM

Yeah, and who talked you through these connections to the DFP-D3000?

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 07-09-2002 04:25 PM

Brad,

Why do you characterize the DTS changeover as "not perfectly timed"? For clarification, it doesn't changeover when it sees _any_ timecode, but it changes over when it sees timecode on or after the start of the reel. So the 3' or so of timecode on the head does not disrupt anything. (I don't think you meant to imply such, but I think someone might misread you.)

(Of course, if you want to prevent the DTS box from autoswitching, and you've already given in to the "cheating" impulse and used relays, well, the solution should be clear...)

--jhawk

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-09-2002 04:57 PM

Yes, that was poorly worded on my part. By exact I meant that it is not changeover controlled and it does it on it's own. As such it may not switch sound right with the picture. What is this cheating trick you speak of? (This is the first time I have ever installed a 2 projector system with digital sound.)

Steve, now you know you da man!

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-09-2002 07:32 PM

DTS has also changed their changeover schemes over the years. I really liked the original one...it would go with the "next" TC that came on, irrespective of reel order. The last time I checked, DTS favored projector 1...if TC1 is valid, that is what plays...it doesn't look for TC2 until TC-1 is no more.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 07-09-2002 07:52 PM

"What is this cheating"? Well, to my mind, if you have to use an external relay, it's "cheating," and it means the system isn't designed for changeovers [or is designed poorly].

But then again, I've never set up any digital system other than a DTS-6D for changeover, so I can't comment on the DA20, really. Though the idea of a fixed changeover time seems screwy to me, since unfortunately some prints come with shredded tails and you don't necessarily have 7 seconds between cue dots and 1 second after (sure, you can re-cue them, but we usually don't).

Anyhow, what I meant with regard to "cheating" was that you could configure the DTS box for single-projector operation, and then use a relay to switch between the two timecode readers at will (I could imagine there being problems with this approach, of course).

--jhawk

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-09-2002 09:00 PM

John, I would think the biggest problem would be the offset delay between the two readers. Honestly, I haven't given it much thought for like I said, this is the first changeover booth I have ran film in that has digital sound and more importantly, this is the first installation of a changeover booth I have ever done...so this is a learning experience for me.

By the way, I used to run old beaten up prints at college that had substantial frames/footage missing at the end of the reels. You would be amazed at how effective a piece of white Artist's tape is on the outboard edge of the print to signal "start motor 2", followed by another piece on the last frame of the reel. I was able to get within a couple of frames accuracy using this method never even looking at the screen. Unfortunately, you can't run the prints on the fly (such as if they show up late), for this approach requires the use of a frame counter and prep-work.

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 07-09-2002 10:26 PM

Also make sure you connnect the automation between dts and the DFP the way it is described in the tech-notes! Then the DFP will have constant status information from dts rather than the single on/off pulses and you can have multiple fallback through ALL formats. Unfortunately, most installers don`t care to do it that way. They will rather install the dts the "classic" way, causing it to bypass the DFP`s very clever fallback structure.
You can setup the dts-6d to route the SW signal to the LE/RE outputs which it has to be 70mm-compatible as well as to the SW output. If your LE/RE speakers can handle it, you can have some extra bass this way. I believe you can also do it with the DA20, but I am not sure.
I am sure, however, that many on this forum (which strikes me as being rather negative about SDDS) will not like what I am going to write now: if you set up and align the DFP-D3000 properly, you will find it is the best cinema processor around. It sounds really great, is very reliable and has a lot of useful functions (like the fader memory to battle excessive trailer loudness) but is easy to operate at the same time. Enjoy!
Michael

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