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Topic: DTS ES doubt

Miguel Angel Martorell
Film Handler

Posts: 81
From: Valencia, Spain
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 07-18-2002 07:04 PM

I didn´t worked with DTS ES (I love to...) but I have a question.
The DD EX is 5.1 and the surround center channel is produced by the LS and RS channels ¿O.K.?.

Now I have just read that DTS ES allows the chance of 6.1 discrete channels.

The discs recorded on DTS ES that I have in my thetare are both compatible 5.1 matrix and 6.1 discrete or just 5.1 with matriced LS and RS.

Sorry for my english but I´m a little hurry

Un saludo

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 07-18-2002 07:35 PM

DTS-ES works exactly the same as Dolby Digital EX. They both matrix the center surround from the left and right surrounds. Only in the home can you get discrete 6.1 surround with the center surround completely independent from the left and right surrounds. No technology exists in movie theaters today to do this... unless you put 2 DTS units together and I don't think any mainstream movies are mixed for that. But you may have heard about the home version of DTS-ES which is far superior to the theatrical version. Too bad like only 3 DVDs use DTS-ES.

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Karen Hultgren
Master Film Handler

Posts: 492
From: Agoura Hills, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 07-18-2002 07:54 PM

The DTS-ES for cinemas is not discrete, it is a matrix.

Our "ES" for the home market is discrete.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com

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Karen Hultgren
Master Film Handler

Posts: 492
From: Agoura Hills, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 07-18-2002 07:56 PM

To tell the diference between a 5.1 disc and a 6.1 disc, look at the film's serial number. If it has 5 digits, it is 6.1 format. If it has 4 digits, it is 5.1 format.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-18-2002 08:35 PM

It is pretty frustrating not many DVDs are released with DTS-ES 6.1 discrete audio tracks. But then not many movies are even mixed for Dolby Digital Surround EX, which is kind of a pre-requisite for current films. If the master recording features no center surround, then it makes things more costly to do ES 6.1 on DVD.

I'm not sure I understand why Anchor Bay makes so many audio "remasters" of older movies like "Suspiria," "The Stunt Man" and "The Evil Dead" in DTS-ES, but at least they seem willing to support the format.

Some of the DVD press articles indicate the upcoming 4-disc SE of "The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring" will have a discrete 6.1 DTS-ES audio track.

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Miguel Angel Martorell
Film Handler

Posts: 81
From: Valencia, Spain
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 07-18-2002 08:44 PM

Thanks Joe and Karen. I knew how to recognize a DTS ES disc and suppossed that the DTS ES for movie theathres uses a matrix but I was discussing with a friend very interested in the subject but with any connection with the "film world" and before close the discussion I wanted the opinion of the experts.
Now I have another question. I´m right if I say that if I´ve a CP-650 processor (with EX matrix decoder) and a DTS 6 unit I can play a DTS ES disk in ES ´cause the matrix is the same for EX and ES.

Thanks again y un saludo

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 07-19-2002 02:14 AM

Yes. Theatrically, EX and ES aren't any different other than the way they look, the proprietary internal design and of course the setup. They both give you the center surround information in the same manner. You can play DTS-ES discs through Dolby EX and you can play Dolby Digital EX through a DTS-ES unit.

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Jean-Michel Grin
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 222
From: Geneva & Lausanne, Switzerland
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 07-19-2002 03:59 AM

Well you're all Right

A Dts Player can play trought a Dolby CP 650 and surrounds channels decoded by the EX Decoder, but a anothert querstion, How can we make to link a Sony SDDS processor like the 2000 or 2500 to a CP 650 an benefit of The EX circuitry and the failsafe / or automation ?
Actually we have a DFP-D2000 connected between a CP 500 an a SA-10: A lot of trouble ! The EX circuitry will not work and DC voltages appears at the surrounds amplifiers inputs. How can we interfacing theses equipement.
One more question guys, How can you make to interface a Dolby processor and a SDDS Processor in a 8 screen channels theater ?
Could someone give me a trick and some aspirine ? (LOL)
I'ts sounds like the EX or ES movie will be abandoned in the future, that's sad, What do you think about ?

Bueno Miguel, buena suerte, y un saludo de Suiza !

Jean-Michel Grin (Europlex Cinemas, Switzerland)

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-19-2002 04:03 AM

You can custom make cables to send the unequalized SDDS output into the external digital input (the dts input) of a CP650 if you wish, but the only Dolby processor that can retain the 8 channels is the CP200 with an Aux rack. The biggest problem is in the auto-fallback. The DFP-2000 does not have anything instantaneous that you can wire up to force the Dolby processor back into SR if the SDDS data should drop out.

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Les Brock
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Basingstoke, Hamshire, UK
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 07-19-2002 08:45 AM

Jean-Michel,

Go to www.sdds.com and in the Tech section you can find technical notes that describe the various ways to connect Sony & Dolby equipment.

It is true that the D2000 does not have the automation signal to tell a CP650 when there is no SDDS data but Smart Devices make an SDDS/EX card which plugs into the automation connector of the D2000 and can be used to switch the CP650 when SDDS is present or not.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-19-2002 09:04 AM

The Panastereo CSp1200 with the 70mm adaptor (you can remove the mag preamps) allows for the 8 channels and there ES adapter will do the ex
THe SDDS can be set flat and fed into it

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-19-2002 09:32 AM

Here's a fanciful thought....will the digital tracks ever get as reliable as the analog tracks? I mean, will they ever not need a "back-up track"? After all, analog tracks have played for nearly a century before digital ever came along and they never needed no stinkin' backup track. Did they?

And by the way, there isn't anything that magical about matrix decoding. You want to get decent derived center surround? Just get yourself an old used Dolby Cat 150 card, connect it up to one of those nice a little V-regulated wedgie power supplies from Radio Shack, pass the Ls and Rs outputs to the decoder inputs, tap the surround output and there you have it....a very distinct center surround just waiting to drive your center surround amps and speakers. Mount it all in a spiffy 1U rack box and you've got a down and dirty (and especially cheap) EX or ES or Circle Surround as Smart calls it, all your own.

Frank

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-19-2002 06:32 PM

70mm DTS has no audio backup on the print. You just have film image and time code. The time code on the 70mm print is larger than the morse code like dots and dashes on 35mm. If the DTS hardware (reader and processor) is in proper working order then it is basically impossible for any misreads to occur.

However, DTS recommends that any 70mm DTS setup feature a backup DTS unit in case of a hardware failure, such as a disc drive going bad or something like that.

CCDs imagers are improving all the time. They are far above the levels of sophistication in 1990 when Cinema Digital Sound started the whole paradigm shift to 5.1 digital. However, the CCDs are still not good enough to handle Dolby Digital and SDDS tracks without the SR backup track. DTS can ignore up to 48 frames of bad data but the most SDDS and DD can miss is 4 frames. Even with a supercharged new reader sporting the latest CCDs a bad splice or damaged section may still trip out the system to analog.

With the current DTS, DD and SDDS formats, SR backup is going to remain a standard item. Perhaps if/when advances are made to move film sound formats into another generation of development we may see new "dual systems" with robust enough time code that the SR backup track isn't needed. And for 35mm film, that could introduce some improvement in image quality by having the film image completely fill in the area between the perfs just like 70mm.

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