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Topic: 12,000 fps film camera!?!

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-19-2002 11:00 PM

I just saw a report on CNN about a motion picture camera that can photograph up to 12,000 frames per second. The report showed footage of a water balloon (filled with milk?) dropping and exploding on this fellow's head in extreme slow motion. The footage was really cool.

The reporter said, "computer animation may be great, but this is real."

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-19-2002 11:37 PM

Dude! That's, like, 750 feet a second... 500 miles per hour... Mach 0.6!!

How the hell do they pull the film through the camera at those speeds without tearing or stretching the film?! Polyester, even?!
How do they keep the camera from blowing up under the stress, for crikes sake?!

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Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 08-19-2002 11:39 PM

It is possible, although at that speed, you need an extremely fast film or LOTS of light. a 2000 foot reel will only last a second or two. They can get away with that by using a prism shutter and having the film move continuously through the camera gate.

its been done for years, the Photosonics cameras can reach several thousand frames per second.

Randy, all camera stock is acetate, mainly to protect the mechanism in the event of a film jam, the film will just shear. Somewhere around here I have video tape of a photosonics camera running through a roll of film in about 3 seconds. cool to watch

Josh

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 08-19-2002 11:40 PM

It isn't as impossible as you might think....I'd be willing to wager a rotating prism is used instead of a claw/shutter. Then, I'd be willing to wager each frame has to be hand centered to remove instability associated with the process. At least, that is how they had to be done in the good old days.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 08-19-2002 11:42 PM

Steve,

Thats still how its done, although I bet that cameras have gotten more stabile over the years. the prism mechanism is about the only way to do that.

Josh

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002

posted 08-20-2002 01:55 AM

The film doesn't have to mode that fast, these cameras use 16mm film, and it moves continuously, and it runs up to that speed, so the acceleration, is within what the film can stand. I seem to remember that the film stock uses a longer perforation pitch to normal camera stocks, I'm not sure if this just means normal .03" rather than 0.2994 short pitch used in normal cameras, or something else again. John?

You need fast film, and a lot of light, but not for very long; try the 1.75 second duration PF330 flashbulbs from www.meggaflash.com . They are not cheap.

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 08-20-2002 03:00 AM

Or the film doesn't have to move at all. EG&G designed and used cameras like that for recording the atomic tests that used to be done at the Nevada Test Site, about 90 miles from here. Basically the film was loaded as a helix onto the inner surface of a cylindrical chamber. A rotating prism or mirror assembly, riding on a central corkscrew pitched to match the width of the film, was then used to expose the film. Those cameras achieved very high frame rates with almost no moving parts.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-20-2002 05:10 AM

At least for 16mm, high-speed cameras use ESTAR-base film with "long-pitch" perforations, presumably in order to avoid damage to the camera movement that might result if acetate film were to break while running. Even Bolexes aren't supposed to be run without film above 32 fps.

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 08-20-2002 05:42 AM

A camera running that frame rate probably is a "drum" type camera...a couple feet of film wrapped around a high-speed spinning drum. Only good for an exposure that lasts a split-second.

Rotating prism cameras top out at about 5kfps and indeed use ESTAR film as Scott mentioned. They have to hold 1000' of film since most of it is wasted while the camera accelerates up to the desired exposure speed.

>>> Phil

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 08-20-2002 05:52 AM

Some links:
http://www.alangordon.com/r.hispeedpin.html
http://web.umr.edu/~boom/facilities.html

Spin Physics was a subsidiary of Kodak for many years. Their high speed video cameras (12,000 fps) are used throughout the world:
http://web.umr.edu/~boom/photo2/sp2000.jpg

Many Kodak camera films are available on ESTAR polyester base and with "long pitch" perforations for use in high speed instrumentation cameras. Most of the automobile "crash tests" are still captured on film.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 08-20-2002 08:20 AM

I've seen those ultra-hi-speed cameras offered on Ebay several times at ridiculously low prices. They're bright yellow monsters requiring
special cables and attachments, of no practical use to the average purchaser, and too huge and ugly to interest collectors.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-20-2002 08:41 AM

Oh, I get the part about fast/sensitive film, bright light and rotating drum transport & shutter mechanism. I've seen TV shows where they tell you how they work. Those cameras take pictures in the 2-5,000 FPS range.

They look very cool! It takes a while to get up to speed and the last few feet of film are trashed too because the tail gets chewed up from whipping around so fast. I imagine they are the "Formula One" of movie cameras. They SOUND like it too!

I don't doubt they can get a camera to run at 10,000 + FPS... They obviously have. It's just that incredible things like this have a tendancy to warp the brain if you think about them too much!

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-20-2002 09:28 AM

Actually the film is fastened to a drum and spun up to speed, then an exposure is made. So simple its stupid! The present version only holds about 150 frames of film though. They are claiming it to be the highest speed camera yet developed. Randy, your 500mph speed calculation is correct according to the article I read yesterday about it.
Mark

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 08-20-2002 11:50 AM

I caught part of that story on TV this morning. They did take after take of the water balloon falling on the guy's head before they got the shot exactly the way they wanted. I only caught a glimpse of the actual camera. Looked like the film magazine held more than 2000'.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-20-2002 03:23 PM

With a drum spinning that fast, (as fast as I imagine it would), I bet they don't need to worry about the camera moving... Built-in gyro stabilizers!

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