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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Start Cue for ORC Automation? (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Start Cue for ORC Automation?
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

- posted 08-28-2002 03:05 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Like Brad, I want a start cue for my automation that was originally built with the ancient outdated logic of "motor down the leader and then press start... seven seconds later your douser/sound will change". I will not go into the many many advantages of having a start cue, but I would really like one for this automation. I don't remember the exact model number since I am not at the theater, but it is the automation circled in this picture:

The automation can use a start cue when interlocked, and then it counts down anywhere from 0 to 15 seconds (adjustable) before it opens. I'd like to wire this so it thinks it is interlocked all the time and just use a cue on the leader and adjusting the timing to zero so it opens as it reads the cue. Is there anyway to wire this automation so that it thinks it is always interlocked with itself?


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

- posted 08-28-2002 06:38 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe, the last time I interlocked my two ORC's together, I used a 10-pass 8-foot accumulator. I didn't have Selsyns. What I did was start both machines at the same time (motor manual on the second machine) without significant delay. (I could run fast in those days) and then I waited at the second machine for my marker splice at a pre-determined location, and started the second machine on automation. After everything was running hunky-doory, I shut the manual motor switch off and let the automation do its thing. It worked quite well.

Today I would not try it with those old ORC POS'S. They are too flakey, and I still have not found out why one of them drops out when it feels like it. If your automations are still rock solid, they should perform OK like the way I used them.

Only thing to be careful of....find out which machine runs a little faster...and thread your accumulator accordingly.


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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

- posted 08-28-2002 07:31 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You don't understand:

I WOULD NEVER EVEN ATTEMPT TO INTERLOCK THESE THINGS! That frightens me. It even frightens Brad Miller.

What I want to do is wire the automation so that it thinks it's always interlocked, when in reality it is not. That way I can use a start cue on the front of the leader to tell the machine when to switch on instead of the lame-ass 7 second delay. I do have Selsyns but I have no use for them and would love to disconnect them, but the wiring schematics in the ORC manual are cryptic at best.

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Jon Bartow
Master Film Handler

Posts: 287
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Nov 1999

- posted 08-28-2002 07:35 PM      Profile for Jon Bartow   Email Jon Bartow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe, I believe the automation you circled is a VA-301 automation. It's been a few years but I once did exactly as you are wanting to do. Now I could be remembering incorrectly but ... here goes.
What I was using was Big Sky optical cue readers and I set cue "1" as the start cue.
When the "start" button is pushed it starts a series of capacitor "timers" on the timer board. If I remember correctly there is another little plug-in board with some diodes on them to set which timer circuit is connected to which relays (LU, LD, PO, PU, etc) WHat I did was to unsolder one end of the diode that controlled the PO (Picture On) relay. Then the "Start" button will start the motor and Xenon but the C/O will not open. I used the N/O contacts of the Big sky automation cue "1" to trigger the PO relay. This meant that the "Picture On Cue" was not delayed at all so the cue would go about 24" IN FRONT of the first frame you wanted on screen.
I may not be remembering exactly right, but it did work for me. It requires some free time and a bit of fun with a soldering iron. I suppose you could wire in a SPDT toggle switch to go back and forth between modified and factory operation.
Jonathan Bartow


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

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From: Mount Vernon WA USA
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- posted 08-28-2002 07:39 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry, Joe. I mis-interperted what you were trying to ask.


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 08-28-2002 09:20 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You probably have a knowckoff or one of the OEM versions of the Rven Pac1 and it will not allow a foil to start unless in interlock and then only on the second machine
It was not designed for any other form of operation

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

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From: Denver, Colorado
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- posted 08-28-2002 11:33 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Gordon, but I want to TRICK it to thinking it is always interlocked. There MUST be a way to do so.

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Gracia L. Babbidge
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 709
From: Bowdoin, Maine
Registered: Aug 2000

- posted 08-28-2002 11:43 PM      Profile for Gracia L. Babbidge   Author's Homepage   Email Gracia L. Babbidge   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
...that looks eerily familiar...

Um, yeah, that does look an awful lot like the VA-301 automation
What Mr. Bartow suggested does in fact work ... even after a couple of years!

...but as for tricking the machine into thinking that it's interlocked? *shrugs*

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

- posted 08-29-2002 12:00 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Jon, do you know how Joe's automation handles interlock? What is the wiring between units? I wonder if it is not possible to fake the other automation (the starting one) on the line such that the second one thinks it is running in sync with another unit (which of course is nonexistant). Even if Joe had to cycle a switch each time he threaded to simulate a "tailing out/reset" of the first machine, I'm sure that he wouldn't mind to be able to achieve a start cue. Even that might be able to be automated though. (I'm just babbling here as I have never worked with the fabulous automations that Joe is blessed with. )

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
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- posted 08-29-2002 12:18 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would have to flip up the interlock sync "lock on" switch, but it could just stay up 100% of the time. Beyond that it should operate normally with a properly cued film, just as long as no one "unswitched" the interlock.


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Jon Bartow
Master Film Handler

Posts: 287
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Nov 1999

- posted 08-29-2002 07:56 AM      Profile for Jon Bartow   Email Jon Bartow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok, going on the premise that it is in fact a VA301 the interlock system required an "interlock box." the schematics called for Nine 16awg wires from each proj to the interlock box. Then there were three switches on the box (?). As I recall after pressing start on either interlocked projector both motors and xenons would go then an end of show cue was placed on the film to start the timer. Interlock operation required both projector sync switches to be on and switches on the interlock box to engage the projector and to select sync/normal mode.
Now without studying the schematics I can't tell you how to hotwire the interlock so it thinks that there is another "phantom" projector, but it could be rather complicated, I'm pretty sure it would involve a couple of relays and a couple of switches. There is a manual in the archives for a VA-101 that includes the SY-101 syncronous box (interlock box) that was the same for the VA-101 and -301. If you have a spare interlock box that would probably make things easier.
However, I think my previously discussed mod would be cheaper. But if you have foil cues only... get some countdown leader.

Gracia, glad to hear that those beasts are still running fine.
AFAIK she has OrconII consoles with the VA-301 automation and she does have interlock set up between two of them (no selsyn) but the two projectors are a Century JJ-2 and a Christie P35C which required a signifigant accumulator loop to accomidate the different start up/run down speeds. However the interlock did work rather faithfully. (and still does?)
Jonathan Bartow


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Darryl Spicer
Film God

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From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000

- posted 08-29-2002 11:42 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here is a curious question to throw on the pile. Of course depending on the type of automation and what it can do. If you place a foil start cue on the leader like Joe wants to do and trick the automation into thinkiong that it is interlocking. What effect does the other cues have on the system. Things like rolling stock cues, full dim cues and end cues. Would you encounter a situation like I have where the cue that is the start cue is the same as the full dim cue and when that one is read shuts the picture off and then back on. This happens at our older theater here when running interlock. You have to remove the other cue.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
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- posted 08-29-2002 12:36 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think Jon is correct in that it would be difficult to hotwire. I do have 3 of the wall-mounted interlock boxes (for 6 projectors). I have standard foil cues. Inboard and outboard. The inboard raises the lights and does nothing else. The outboard does the shutdown logic. Could Jon's method be done with a cue detector like that?

Darryl, when in interlock mode, the first outboard cue would start the picture on logic. After that the picture is on and the next outboard cue is assumed to be the shutdown cue, so it performs accordingly.


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Wes Hughes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2001

- posted 08-29-2002 01:02 PM      Profile for Wes Hughes   Email Wes Hughes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I fail to see what is so hard or technically non-advantageous about lacing countdown leader to "7" and starting the show ????

Even if you don't have countdown...lace up with the "start splice" a predetermined distance from the projector (that you have found via trial and error).


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Brad Miller
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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

- posted 08-29-2002 02:15 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Wes, it is because it is unprofessional. I say unprofessional meaning that if you are threading up a mere 7 seconds of film away from the first frame of your presentation, you are basically getting on your hands and knees and begging to the gods of dirt to come live on your film...especially that first trailer.

The dirt that gets on the leader (moreso at theaters where they let the leader touch the floor as they thread) then transfers itself to the next wrap on the center ring as it is taken up. Then the next show that second layer of dirty film transfers it's dirt to the third layer, then the fourth, then the fifth and so on. This is why at probably over 90% of all theaters, the first trailer looks awful, and then slowly clears up the further into the roll of film the show gets. A professional operation's "first trailer on the platter" after weeks of running will look just as good as the middle of a 2000 foot reel of the feature on it's first run.

Then there's the issue of threading on a reasonable length of leader (never ever less than 50 feet, 75 or 100 is preferred) and "motoring down" to the start point. Turning that motor switch on and off is just adding more wear and tear to the motor and gears.

A start cue is the professional way to go for both your equipment and your presentation.


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