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Topic: emulsionside???

Patrick de Groot
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 161
From: Sprang-Capelle, Netherlands
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 09-03-2002 01:45 PM

How can I see which side of a film is the emulsion side? I can feel a difference when I press my finger on the movie and move it over the film. One side is more smooth than the other. But which side is this?

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Sam Hunter
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 779
From: West Monroe, LA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 09-03-2002 01:56 PM

The dull side is usually the emulsion side. It will also feel rough.
Some people use there lips as to your lip will stick to the emulsion side.

------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.

KC5ZSL

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Patrick de Groot
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 161
From: Sprang-Capelle, Netherlands
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 09-03-2002 02:04 PM

hmmm both sides seems shiny to me...

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-03-2002 02:05 PM

Here's some information about film base and emulsion:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/base.shtml

The image on a 35mm release print normally "reads" correctly when viewed from the emulsion side of the film. If you look at the print with the image upright and the analog soundtrack along the left side of the image, the emulsion side of the film is toward you.

It's poor practice to determine the emulsion side by wetting the film or sticking it to your lips or tongue . (Although some still use the technique to tell which side is the emulsion on unprocessed film in a darkroom).

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 09-03-2002 02:47 PM

John,

I usually use my lips to determine the emulsion side. But I usually put my lips on the very border of the print (the SDDS zone!). I dont' like to kiss the prints!!

I can recognize some colleague's work when I can see the lips mark over the entire frame!
They can write some cooking recipe based on 35mm prints!

Bye
Antonio

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-03-2002 03:38 PM

Antonio wrote: "They can write some cooking recipe based on 35mm prints!"

Maybe that's why a film pile-up is sometimes referred to as "spaghetti". The gelatin used to make film is much purer than food grade gelatin, but film does contain "artificial coloring" and much more than the daily recommended dose of minerals (silver).

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Jeff Skallan
Film Handler

Posts: 65
From: Littleton, CO, USA
Registered: May 2001

posted 09-03-2002 04:40 PM

There's no need to kiss the film! Breathe on it. The side you see your breath vapor on is the base side. Also, around these parts in Colorado with dry humidity, the film will slightly curl inward toward the emulsion side.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 09-03-2002 06:45 PM

When I was just starting out as an editorial apprentice, it was quite acceptable for me to use my lips to determine which was the emulsion side. In fact, that's how they told me to go about doing it.

Having said that, it was also explained to me that it was only okay because I was a novice and I understood quite clearly that the day would come when I couldn't get away with it anymore.

Try looking at the film at different angles. If the film is always shiny (no matter the angle at which you are holding it) then you are probably looking at the base side. If the film looks "dull" from certain angles, then that is the emulsion side.

It's one thing to be handling the film if you're just experimenting with old trailers or whatever, but you should try to always wear white cotton gloves when handling film you actually plan to show.

Latex gloves are more readily available and they are okay for general operations (e.g. lacing/threading) but they will probably get torn or sliced if you hold the film while it is in motion (e.g. rewinding) or if you are splicing.

~Manny

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 09-03-2002 07:05 PM

Don't believe everything you read in the books Manny. Cotton gloves are a waste of money and slow down the inspection process if you know what you are doing and can handle the film properly. Cotton gloves are a crutch for people who have poor film handling practices so they do not destroy the film.

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Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-03-2002 07:16 PM

Cotton gloves prevent chunks of flesh ripping from your fingers.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 09-03-2002 07:30 PM

Never had that happen Jeffry. Perhaps you might want to change the way you are holding the film.

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Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1517
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 09-03-2002 08:09 PM

Yep, it's a controversial subject but I just can't move my hands with cotton gloves, and I've never gotten fingerprints on the film as a result of not using them. I did watch a print made up by someone who did use gloves, and managed to get the last shot marked-up when putting on the lights-up cues!!

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Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-03-2002 09:19 PM

One thing I do is look at the film from an angle to a light source. The DTS track will be somewhat "indented," so will the analog track, you can also see the lines that make up the image. This is the emulsion side.

Josh

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-03-2002 09:48 PM

The "indented" surface is called a "relief image", caused by a difference in the hardening of the emulsion during development and bleaching in the process. The KODACHROME process and the old ECP process that used dichromate bleach gave a very obvious relief image. Today's print films have a much less obvious relief image, but if you look closely, it is a good guide to the emulsion side.

If you can properly handle the print by the edges only (no greasy fingerprints on the picture or soundtracks!), gloves are optional. Always wash and dry your hands before handling film however.

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Sam Hunter
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 779
From: West Monroe, LA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 09-03-2002 10:22 PM

In defense of myself, I do not use the kissing method to determine emulsion side and should not have used it as an example.
As all the post show, there are numerous ways to handle film and such. I think if I couldn't find any other method then I would sacrifice one frame and do the scratch test (If you had to splice the film that is).But I really think if you look close enough you will see a difference between each side with the dull side being emulsion.

------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.

KC5ZSL

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