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Topic: Vinegar syndrome in release prints

Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-13-2002 09:45 AM

How common is this? I made up a print of Friday the 13th last night and when I opened the can, the stench nearly knocked me on my ass! one reel was severly warped, it just wouldnt lay flat. The stock is Fuji, and the color is ok, prolly better than Eastmen of this vintage would be.

But my question is, how are conditions used to store prints like this? I've got stuff from the 50's that hasn't turned yet, and this film is what, 20 years old? The storage conditions must be, to say the least, less than ideal.

Josh

------------------
"Film is made of silver, video is made of rust"
'nuf said

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-13-2002 09:56 AM

Here's information about "vinegar syndrome":
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/technical/vinegar.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/molecular.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/technical/storage2.shtml
Vinegar Syndrome article[/UR L]
[URL=http://www.capital.net/com/jaytp/VINEGAR.HTM]http://www.capital.net/com/jaytp/VINEGAR.HTM
http://www.nb.no/fiat/Bogensee/2-173gaustad.html
http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/2what_wrong.html
http://www.film-center.com/gb4.html
http://www.newport-news.va.us/wwdept/infosite/lifeexpectARMA.PPT

Many release prints are stored in unconditioned warehouses, where the poor conditions of high temperature, high humidity, and sealed containers (film cases) can accelerate the onset of "vinegar syndrome" in triacetate base films.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Bill Gabel
Film God

Posts: 3873
From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 09-13-2002 10:07 AM

A few years ago I got a print from TES of a Miramax film. I opened
the can and got the same problem. What happened was that TES had
treated the print. Since some studios make a few prints on some titles
they treat them. So they can reuse them later. Over at Paramount
some of the studio IB prints have vinegar syndrome.

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Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-13-2002 11:01 AM

I think we've previously discussed the problems inherent in film "treatments" and while I have never personally had problems with Photoguarded prints, certainly rejeuvination or scratch removal processes are another issue with heat and caustic/acidic chemicals likely to accellerate or even cause the onset of VS. Surprisingly, though, although I've only had a few prints turn, almost all of them have been older dye transfer IB Tech prints. It does make me wonder whether some aspect of the dye transfer process is responsible, or whether it's just the advanced age of these prints. Anybody have any thoughts?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-13-2002 11:10 AM

It has been hypothesized that the gelatin emulsions in processed Kodak incorporated coupler color films tend to act as a "buffer", absorbing and neutralizing the initial release of acid vapors, thereby slowing the progress of the hydrolysis reaction that causes "vinegar syndrome".

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 09-14-2002 05:03 PM

Why don't they just make a few extra copies and store those brand-new copies properly?

It seems to me that would be a simpler solution than going through used prints and (hopefully) trying to find a few that are in good condition.

Could a prestigious organization (say, a theatre or university) request -- and actually get) a "new print" struck from the negative as opposed to a used copy?

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 09-15-2002 02:30 AM

There is a place near Hutchinson, Kansas that is a converted salt mine that stores lots of environmental-sensitive product (including o-neg film prints). I think this place needs to get a lot more business for keeping movies intact. The humidity and temperature level is at a fixed constant that never wavers. I guess if the movie studios were willing to pay the storage fee, you would not get vinegar syndrome from a print stored there.

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Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-15-2002 02:30 AM

I heard back once a theater actually paid to have a new print struck.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-15-2002 06:55 AM

Bobby wrote: "There is a place near Hutchinson, Kansas that is a converted salt mine that stores lots of environmental-sensitive product (including o-neg film prints)."

Probably Underground Vaults and Storage:
http://www.uvsinc.com/index.html

Although many studios have long had excellent programs of preservation (e.g., Disney, MGM), almost all the major studio now see the value of proper storage, preservation, and restoration of their valuable assets:
http://www.hollywoodvaults.com/resources.html
http://www.cinesite.com/la/presrest/index.html
http://www.cinesite.com/la/presrest/protek.html
http://www.ironmountain.com/

Not-for-profit and governmental archives have the daunting task of trying to preserve "orphan" films, or films that don't have enough of a commercial market to pay for preservation/restoration services.
http://www.amianet.org/
http://www.afi.com/
http://www.eastman.org/
http://www.cinema.ucla.edu/
http://lcweb.loc.gov/film/

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 09-15-2002 09:12 AM

IIRC, the "converted salt mine' was where the negs of STAR WARS were kept. Unfortunately, they were not stored properly (improper packaging) and this is how the digitized "Special Edition" was born.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-15-2002 05:00 PM

...and the fact that most of the opticals for the original SW were on unstable CRI stock (probably the fastest-fading stock in history) didn't help matters, either.

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