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Author Topic: Would you have removed these lab splices? Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-13-2002 01:20 PM                     While building Star Trek: Nemesis yesterday, I noticed our reel four had THREE lab splices in the reel. That's right, THREE! My boss threw out the two that I cut out (the third was on the frameline) by mistake since she didn't know I was keeping them, so I don't have them to scan. I'll try to describe it the best way I can, though: The first one occured in an almost totally black frame. To be more accurate, it was outer space with just a few stars here and there. WHAM! A huge white lab splice in the middle of the frame. This would have been horribly distracting to the audience, especially once the print moves to an analog house. The second was in the middle of an action scene, and was in the top third of the frame. The problem with this one was that it was followed by an emulsion scratch from the lab splice down into the following frame. The third like I said, was on a frameline, so I left it alone. My question is, to those Film-Techers here who do not remove lab splices for reasons of not removing any frames from the feature, (or any other reason) would you have removed these had you run across them? (Let's just say that ordering a replacement reel is not an option, even though 3 lab splices in a single reel would probably warrant a replacement request.) On a side note, anyone else notice that the head leader of Reel 1 on Star Trek had a picture of a bomb inside the square next to "H-1"? No other reels had it. =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-13-2002 06:41 PM                     Quite simply 'YES' ...even if they are on the frame line. They sound awful when running analogue and to be honest I don't trust them. I'm much happier with a properly made tape splice, whatever that happens to mean, but it comes down to a personal preference. I make hundreds of tape splices that don't let me down.... so I know them and trust them. I'm happy to stick with the devil I know. When I make up a print, I make it up with the long term view of it running for many months. We tend to hold onto certain print's for matinee performances etc. So the bottom line is that lab joins come out!  |  IP: Logged Jacob Huber Expert Film Handler Posts: 172 From: Evansville, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-13-2002 07:38 PM                     We've been having troubles with our Nemesis print, around late reel 4. It seems that there is a few consecutive out of frame lab splices right before the reel ends that were giving us a bit of problems today. We should probably just order a new reel.  |  IP: Logged Bob Brown Expert Film Handler Posts: 146 From: Grand Rapids, MI Registered: Apr 2002 posted 12-13-2002 07:47 PM                        Yes, Lab Splices need to go. I had two in reel #5. Both were midframe. I also had one in the credits. Even thou we run in DTS so the sound "pop" in not heard, you still see the splice go thru. I check every print, cant say the same for the rest of the booth staff, but you know how that goes. As a side note, has anyone else had problems with focus issues on Star Treck? We have prints numbered in the high 4,000's and in our biggest house (580 seats) left and center of screen is ok right side is a little fuzzy. Just ran a RP-40 between shows and all is sharp and clean. Had heard of someother theatres having focus issues in the Chicago area. Just wondering.  |  IP: Logged Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-13-2002 07:49 PM                     Well thanks for giving me something to look forward to in the New Year...... Lab splices and focusing problems.... Where's the Gin  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 12-13-2002 08:57 PM                     I only remove lab splices with an ultrasonic splicer. The majority of the time a lab splice that is cut out with a tape splicer looks like the theater screwed up and had to repair the print, whereas a lab splice is an obvious lab issue. (Yes it is important to me that the patrons who would know such things know the print came that way.) To make matters worse, most of the time if I get a secondhand print and someone previously cut out a lab splice, their splice is so horrid that I end up having to chop out two more frames to make a quality splice. Thus I am not much of a fan of cutting them out with a tape splicer, although I am certainly in the general minority regarding that practice. In the end, do whatever YOU think looks best. I don't think there is any general stance toward handling them one way or another. A post-processing ultrasonic splice is just as tough, if not more reliable than a properly made tape splice with quality tape.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-13-2002 09:03 PM                     Bottom line is this 3 lab splices per reel are accepatble practice and an ecconomic necessity. As for removing them they don't have time at a lab to do that so it assumed that on recieving the print a competent projectionist revises the print  |  IP: Logged Bob Brown Expert Film Handler Posts: 146 From: Grand Rapids, MI Registered: Apr 2002 posted 12-13-2002 09:44 PM                        I agree Brad, ultrasonic splices are the way to go, but with the company I work for that is ecomnomicly unfeasable. I try to make my tape splices the best I can, I look at the frame line, if I see any light, then I use a paint pen and blacken out the frame line. Trick I learned from a IMAX projectionist. It's all I can do, to make the print as clean as I can with the equipment I have.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-13-2002 10:16 PM                        Here is the "official" policy on lab splices by the Association of Cinema and Video Laboratories (ACVL Handbook): http://www.acvl.org/4c.htm  |  IP: Logged Darryl Spicer Film God Posts: 3250 From: Lexington, KY, USA Registered: Dec 2000 posted 12-13-2002 10:30 PM                    >>>We've been having troubles with our Nemesis print, around late reel 4. It seems that there is a few consecutive out of frame lab splices right before the reel ends that were giving us a bit of problems today. We should probably just order a new reel. <<< There is one thing you need to watch out for when you run accross lab splices. Doulbe check to make sure that the frame lines did not jump out of position. This can happen if the lab splice causes the film to jump out of position during printing. I have seen this happen a couple of times.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-13-2002 10:56 PM                     Well, TMP, it looks like no one who answered meets your constraint of being someone who doesn't cut out lab splices normally. Those bombs are a regular feature of..who is it?...Deluxe Toronto?--I don't know what they mean though... Gordon, you said that 3 lab splices/reel is an economic necessity ? Did you perhaps mean 3/print? AFAIK, 3/reel means "somebody screwed up." I would reject a new reel if it had 3 splices. It's probably also worth inspecting the areas around the splices very carefully for color variations and other signs of "fogging." --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 12-13-2002 11:07 PM                        We remove ours. They absolutely drive me ballistic. The thing that bugs me about lab splices is that they are almost always off the frame line. Is this because the stock is spliced before printing, so frame awareness is not technically required? After reading the above posts, I guess we were lucky with Star Trek. We only had 3 lab splices in our print... both of them in the middle of the frame, though two of them were in the same reel. We did have to request a replacement of our reel 2. All of the dark scenes had dark, dirt-like smudges running up the left side of the screen. Could this have happened when the print was being developed? I have to admit to being pretty disappointed that the industry has gone to a cost-cutting procedure that degrades our prints to this extent. The industry might like to assume we all have digital sound and these lousy lab splices don't matter. The fact is that in our area, only one theatre is all-digital. Out of 45 some-odd screens, a little under half of them have digital systems. However, even an all-digital house will occasionally need their SR backup, and it's pretty sad when one of these splices hits the sound head. If this industry's smart enough to (eventually) get digital right, can't they at least figure out how to do a decent pre-production splice?  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-13-2002 11:28 PM                     Jack, it's not just technically. There's no frame reference on the undeveloped stock before it goes in to the printer, so there's really no way to guarantee frame-registration. Sometimes I think I'd rather have lab splices mid-frame than have them between frames. At least for scope, since a frame-registered lab splice is still visible and you have to take out two frames. Generally 3 lab splices/print should be the average, since raw stock comes on 6,000' reels and 1 reel is some amount under 2,000'. More than one on a given reel either means "someone screwed up," or the lab in question has started using multiple "short ends" on the same reel. I can't imagine why they would. --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 12-13-2002 11:47 PM                        quote: from JHawk: ... There's no frame reference on the undeveloped stock before it goes in to the printer, so there's really no way to guarantee frame-registration. Yah... thought it was something like that. Thanks.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 12-14-2002 02:09 AM                        Just think, when digital cinema takes over, no more lab splices! That's about the only benefit I can see to it with todays technology (and prices).  |  IP: Logged

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