my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Shrunken Prints

Author Topic: Shrunken Prints Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-27-2002 06:41 PM                     I've read some discussions here regarding shrunken prints and was wondering what causes them to shrink? How can you tell if a print has shrunk, and if it would be runnable in its condition? If you run an acetate print that has shrunk slightly, could it tear up the perforations and ruin the print? I may have to run a print in the next few months from 1982 that has been stored in less than ample conditions for 8 or 9 years. Any surprises I should be aware of beyond normal print inspection? =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-27-2002 06:57 PM                     Thomas, There will be all sorts of surprises if you don't inspect it before you run it. Murphy's Law always prevails on old prints. Should run fine ONCE IT IS INSPECTED....and to boot you will find nothing wrong with the print after spending 1.5 or 2 hours inspecting it. There see....don't you at least feel like you did the right thing ???? Really though if its shrunken bad it may chatter a bit going through the macihne, and you might see some side weave too. Might also leave alot of crud behind in the machinery......... Think Film Guard! Mark @ CLACO  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-27-2002 09:55 PM                        1982 was the first year for LPP (lowfade positive print); if your print is on Eastman stock and it doesn't have the "LPP" initials on the edge of the film, the color may have started to fade. If you're really unlucky, the print will be on "SP" stock, which fades to a nasty brownish shade, rather than the less-offensive "Eastman pink." Fuji stock tends to turn to a weird bluish shade over time. If you're lucky and have an LPP print, color should be perfect. If the film is warped or smells like vinegar (which is possible if the print has been stored in sealed cans in a warm or otherwise inhospitable environment), then you will see what happens when the acetate base begins to decompose. If the print is severely warped, you may have trouble running it, especially on a platter.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-27-2002 10:01 PM                        KODAK ESTAR base film has excellent dimensional stability, and minimal aging shrinkage. Triacetate film does shrink slightly with age, as it loses residual solvents or plasticizers. With improper storage (high humidity, high temperature, sealed cans), triacetate base can degrade with hydrolysis ("vinegar syndrome"), and suffer physical deformation. Here's a link to base characteristics data for Kodak film: http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/baseP.shtml#characteristics And a link to film storage information: http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/storage1.shtml http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/molecular.shtml  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 12-27-2002 10:18 PM                     If you've got a print that is vinegaring, reverse wind it so that the outward bulging/curl of the film is inward, toward the core. Make sure it is wound tightly and use a generous amount of FilmGuard across the entire film, not just the edges. (You can of course use another product, but most cleaner/lubricants evaporate quickly which tends to defeat the purpose). Leave it that way and once a month pull it out and re-apply while you wind it over to another reel, tightly wound (do not "S" wind). Do this for a few months. In many cases, this will make the print runnable again, as the lubricant will relax the film and in conjunction with the curl/winding orientation will help it to flatten out. If you run this on a platter, beware that the film could "ride up" and over the top of the film roll. I normally place a print moving disc on top of the film roll to in essence make a large horizontal reel. If you run this reel to reel, be wary of setting the takeup tension too high. You can damage sprockets that way. Also, leave plenty of extra space on the reel. Don't fill it to the edge.  |  IP: Logged Darren Briggs Master Film Handler Posts: 371 From: York, UK Registered: Dec 2001 posted 12-28-2002 04:12 PM                        Ive ran some god awfull prints and even after checking them for bad joins, split perfs etc ive run the film and its broke at some split youve missed! I would always run the print to check it. As Brad mentioned they sometimes wind strangly on the platter, riding up and sometimes i find very odd shapes occur on pay-out! Normally you can see the film weaving as it is coming across from the platter to the projector if it's shrunk. Picture movement is a problem with very shrunk prints but all the ones i've run in the past have all run ok from a platter. Also breaking down the film which is warpped can be tricky as when backtension is applied they seem to ride up on the make-up table, might be just our platters though Cinemec CNR. Prime example of rehearsing a print is when we screened Lawrence of Arabia in 70 for the first time back in October, after checking all reels before loading onto the plate, there was one slight split perf which tore as it twisted from the projector to the platter return roller. If in doubt run the print. Its also usefull to clean the print to on the rehearsal show, via Film Guard, PTR's etc so when shown it will be in better shape for public performance. Darren  |  IP: Logged Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-11-2003 11:48 AM                     Bumping this up... The print in question is "Pink Floyd: The Wall" The edgeprint only says EASTMAN with a number following it (16, 22, etc) no LPP. I've posted a request for print information in the Feature Info thread. Upon looking at (not actually inspecting yet) this print, it looks as though my work is cut out for me for the next few months!! =TMP= =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Aaron Sisemore Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day! Posts: 3061 From: Rockwall TX USA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 01-11-2003 02:48 PM                     You have an SP print of PF:TW. It should run fine, unless it is vinegar, but you would definitely know if it was. I bet its faded as well. -Aaron  |  IP: Logged Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-12-2003 01:41 AM                     Okay, so I spent the day inspecting and repairing Reel 1 of this print. After inspection, I did a test run along with running it through the film cleaner with pads SOAKED in FilmGuard. The beginning of the reel was totally pink to pink-brown. The hallway sequence at the opening of the film (which looks bluish-grey on the DVD) was very red. Blacks were dark brown. Further into the reel color greatly improved. It was much better by the time the scene with the rioters and police came on, and almost perfect when young Pink was playing in the park. Focus was very sharp throughout. (Ironic... Pink Floyd turning Pink ) There's some slight shrinking going on, too. The sprocket holes wouldn't line up evenly with the pins on the splicer, and in some parts the framing was VERY tight. (You either HAD to see the top or the bottom frameline in some scenes) I noticed in the Feature Info thread that the sound mix is "Dolby A" -- but were there any Mono prints struck? Looking at the soundtrack on the print, it looks like mono, and on the leaders (the few feet that's left of them) It says "mono" but it's handwritten on. I ran it in Stereo A. (It was actually a SMART processor with either "stereo" or "sr" mode. I used Stereo) There was a crackle in the sound, but only when sound was present. Does this indicate the soundtrack is scratched/damaged or is it a result of running it in Stereo when it's a Mono print? Can't wait until Reel 2... that's where all the "good stuff" happens! And I'll be sure to "Crank It Up" like Darryl said! =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Aaron Sisemore Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day! Posts: 3061 From: Rockwall TX USA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 01-12-2003 02:18 AM                     quote: I noticed in the Feature Info thread that the sound mix is "Dolby A" -- but were there any Mono prints struck? AFAICR, MGM Culver City did not strike double inventory for optical tracks.. The prints were either all mono or all stereo. However your description of the distortion and noise does sound as a mono track being played in SR (A is a bit more friendly) Did you hear any surround or channel separation? -Aaron  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 01-13-2003 02:07 AM                        John writes: quote: Triacetate film does shrink slightly with age, as it loses residual solvents or plasticizers. With improper storage (high humidity, high temperature, sealed cans), triacetate base can degrade with hydrolysis ("vinegar syndrome"), and suffer physical deformation. And if that wasn't enough, there is a 'double whammy' with triacetate: the shrinkage by itself can cause film transport problems, both with deformation of the surface and perforation damage, but it also becomes more brittle as the hydrolysis reduces the overall moisture content. So not only might the distance between perforations and the surface area of each perforation decrease slightly (thus causing the film to have an argument with the pitch of the sprocket teeth), but the increased brittleness will make the film more susceptible to tearing if it is placed under abnormal pressure. That's where a lubricating treatment such as edge waxing or Filmguard can help.  |  IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

Printer-friendly view of this topic

Hop To: Select a Forum: Category: Operations -------------------- Digital Cinema Forum Film Handlers' Forum Large Format Forum Ground Level Feature Info, Trailer Attachments & REAL Credit Offsets Category: Community -------------------- Film-Yak Film Handlers' Movie Reviews The Afterlife Bob Maar's Joke-A-Thon Category: Classified -------------------- Equipment and Supplies Wanted/For Sale Help Wanted/Seeking Employment Category: System -------------------- Software Beta Testing Forum

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.