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Author Topic: Haphazard Scratches Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-03-2003 02:20 AM                     I've noticed a strange anomaly (anomalie?) on our print of Lord Of The Rings. Occasionally, a scratch will pop up, then go away that was never there before. It doesn't happen at any specific time, like at a splice or anything, and disappears before I can call my manager to come see it. These are all very thin, hairline base scratches. One is somewhat thick, and appears in a dark scene on the far left in Reel 5, then too goes completely away never to be seen again. The hairline scratches also appear for a brief moment (1-4 seconds) and then go away. There are 3 or 4 I have noticed on the print in different places on different reels. It can't be that the entire print is scratched and that it's sometimes more apparent in different places. There are scenes in the film where the screen is completely white for several seconds, and there aren't any imperfections whatsoever. Examination of the film itself also showed no signs of scratches in other parts. I noticed the scratches about 4 days after a second application of FilmGuard as per our rotating film cleaner schedule, so the possibility of dirt causing the scratches is minimal. (or is it?) Rollers were all lubricated and spin freely, so nothing could be getting stuck for a brief moment to cause it. The projector is clean and doesn't have anything strange sticking out to cause it, either. There's a DTS unit in this house, but everything spins well on that, as well. Everything was fine until I got a few days off and came back to notice the scratches. I want to know if anyone has any idea as to what could be causing these random little scratches everywhere. Dirt getting caught in the aperture and then springing loose? Operator error? (if so, what error? Everything I could think of would cause constant, uniform scratches) Ghosts? Hobbits?? Any information would be appreciated. =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 03:10 AM                     We need equipment lists. (I screened a print of About Schmidt this evening that was brand new from the lab and it had scratches such as this randomly through it. I kept thinking there was a stain on the screen or something, but a few seconds later it would not be there. Since the projector did not have any shedding when the movie was over and no form of film cleaner was used for this one time run, it had to have come from the lab that way as there was nothing in the chain that could have possibly caused those marks.) Before I forget, has this print "moved down" to a smaller house? I generally find that most of the smaller auditoriums in complexes are much brighter than the big houses. Because of this, many scratches are not visible on the big auditorium, but become very obvious on a smaller screen that is brighter.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 01-03-2003 08:43 AM                        Random base-side scratches on a new print could have occured during the processing of the print. Most processing machines run with the base side towards the rollers, and variations in machine tension can make the film pull in and touch a machine component: http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/h249/h2409_02.shtml http://www.screensound.gov.au/glossary.nsf/Pages/Processor?OpenDocument Random base cinches can also occur in the projection room, if the roll is slightly loose and the film laps slip past each other during winding or handling. Kodak VISION Color Print Film has a scratch-resistant anti-static backing that offers superior qualities not found on other print stocks (e.g., it doesn't scratch as easily): http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/2383.shtml http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/2393.shtml Interesting that these scratch incidents are both on prints that were NOT made on Kodak film.  |  IP: Logged Darryl Spicer Film God Posts: 3250 From: Lexington, KY, USA Registered: Dec 2000 posted 01-03-2003 09:22 AM                    one thing to look for is the sound drum. Make sure that it is turning freely and does not present the early signs of the bearings going out.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 01-03-2003 12:14 PM                        Darryl wrote: "one thing to look for is the sound drum. Make sure that it is turning freely and does not present the early signs of the bearings going out." Thank you. I forgot that one. Even if the sound drum is turning freely, be sure there are no burrs or pitting that could scratch the print. Even if it turns freely, there is some slippage between the print and the drum, especially while running up from stopped to sound speed.  |  IP: Logged Michael Gonzalez Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 790 From: Grand Island , NE USA Registered: Sep 2000 posted 01-03-2003 12:18 PM                     I have a good one. What would cause 15 to 20 vertical black scratches to appear on the print during one run of the film (scratches top to bottom across the entire print)? Meaning one run the picture is perfect then the next time it is run the scratches are there. I had this happen two years ago and just recently two months ago. Both time the shows were run by a relatively new booth operator (something like two or three weeks experience). To this day I have not been able to figure out just how the film was misthread to cause that amount of scratches to appear at one time. We are running Christie projectors and Potts platters.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 01-03-2003 12:31 PM                        Michael wrote: "I have a good one. What would cause 15 to 20 vertical black scratches to appear on the print during one run of the film (scratches top to bottom across the entire print)?" That's NOT a "good one" --- it's really BAD. A misthread is the most likely cause. The film was running flat against an abrading / non-rotating surface that caused vertical abrasions across the entire film surface. For example, skipping a guide roller can sometimes have the film rub against the metal casting of the projector. Another possibility is running the print through a dry media cleaner that had become loaded with abrasive dirt or had a defective media transport.  |  IP: Logged Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-03-2003 12:56 PM                     Here's a copy from an e-mail I replied to Brad: Century (SA?) Projector, Strong Alpha platters (older models where the control plate/brain doesn't come out), Christie film cleaner, Media is whatever brand the theater has. They're white and outlast a 3 hour movie. I'm guessing Kelmar? Media is changed every 3-5 runs, unless they come off really dirty. Each time the film cleaner was run on Lord Of The Rings, it was new pads though. Print has been running 4 shows a day since December 18th, now down to 3 shows on the weekdays as of Jan 1, 4 on the weekends. Also note that the print has not moved from this house since it began its run. These scratches also appeared recently, so it couldn't be that way from the lab. The sound drum!! That hasn't crossed my mind but is a possibility. How can you tell if the bearings are beginning to go bad, if it still spins freely? Thanks, =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 04:14 PM                     Michael, I'll bet anything that that first run was misthreaded somewhere past the picture aperture, so the damage was not seen on-screen until the next showing. Thomas, Big Sky and FT media is clearly labeled on the box. That leaves either Neumade or Kelmar. So long as the media was turning, especially since you say the media was changed every run, I highly doubt this is a cleaner issue though. I have seen the film get "sucked" up against the side of a platter tree during payout from static which can produce those scratches intermittently. Other things you could look for would be that perhaps the film was misthreaded on the wrong side of the input guide roller as the film inputs the projector head. Century projectors have as you know a very small opening there and could cause that. Have you checked the platter itself? If you have one deck that is wrapping a full round such that the film is rubbing against itself on payout, that can also cause those kind of intermittent scratches. Pretty much what you need to do is first thing closely examine a stretch of film where the scratch is visible on screen and make sure it really is on the base side of the film, since light emulsion side scratches are black too. Then start watching the equipment as well as your projectionists. See who threads which way. In the end it will probably end up being from a one-time misthread.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 08:16 PM                        Michael & Thomas, create about 10 minutes or more of junk trailers that are not scratched if you can. Misthread in every possible way until you get the identical scratch. I had to do this once to prove I wasn't the one who scratched a print when I was being blamed for it. As for Michaels' scenario, perhaps the individual threaded over BOTH rollers at the top of the Strong platter tree while taking up on the center or bottom deck?  |  IP: Logged Mathew Molloy Master Film Handler Posts: 357 From: The Santa Cruz Mountains Registered: Nov 2000 posted 01-04-2003 05:34 PM                     I need a little help figuring this one out... I'm getting occasional emulsion scratches exactly one frame past a splice. They're showing up just to the right of mid-frame and about a quarter of the frame tall. I'm running a Norelco AAII and Christie AW3. No one's having problems with loop sizes as I've taught them to be very particular about that. I was thinking it might be the splicer, but I've checked it out and I don't think so. I'm stumped. (On a side note, when we took the theatare over last year the rollers below the intermittent were so worn down that the film was rubbing against the mechanism that locks the film against the intermittent! I replaced those immediately.)  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-04-2003 06:29 PM                     Oh that one's easy Mathew. You said you are running an AAII and an AW3 platter. Why there you have it. The platter is ALWAYS at fault! Actually I would recommend you go over the splicer again. In every instance I have seen something like that "just pass the splice" it has always been the splicer. Try punching a fresh splice about 30 times, flip over and repeat. Now closely examine and see if there is a mark. Only then would I start to look at the projection equipment. (However since it only happens right after splices, you can bet it's in the projector.)  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-04-2003 06:56 PM                     Must be a Neumade Splicer  |  IP: Logged Mathew Molloy Master Film Handler Posts: 357 From: The Santa Cruz Mountains Registered: Nov 2000 posted 01-04-2003 11:03 PM                     It's a Strong splicer only 9 months old, never been dropped, banged, dinged, stapled, folded or manipulated. I'm pretty sure it's not the splicer though. I mean, why would it cause a 1/4" long vertical scratch just past the splice? Besides, the scratches aren't there until many runs later (I think...). It's tough having to notice every nuance of the booth and presentation when I have to manage the theatre as well! On a side note, it's a great lil' splicer except for the fact it punches holes larger then the actual sprocket holes. (Forget using this on 4trak mag) but I AM getting excellent splices with no jump in the gate.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-04-2003 11:20 PM                     Holes larger than the perf condemns it to splicer hell Does it actually incurr into the DD data area and the soundtrack guard band  |  IP: Logged

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