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Author Topic: Will a well-made splice be visible onscreen? David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 01-03-2003 10:20 PM                        I can't find any threads that deal with this specific question. Assume a platter operation; high-quality clear splicing tape; clean work environment; care and skill on the part of the film handler making up the print; and ends butted rather than overlapped when making the splice. Under those conditions, how visible should that splice be onscreen? It seems like some splices are nearly undetectable, while others are VERY noticeable, sometimes in the same movie. If splices always look jumpy onscreen, does that mean the gate tension is wrong? And are splices on scope prints any more or less likely to show onscreen than flat prints? Seems like scope would be more revealing since it uses the entire frame.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 11:05 PM                     If you know what you are looking for, any tape splice will be noticeable on screen. Different tape, cheap splicers and proper splicing techniques will result in splices that are obvious or for the most part invisible. You cannot beat a properly aligned Neumade 35SS splicer (modified of course) and Neumade clear tape. Nothing else comes close for an invisible splice. Probably the worst combination I have come across is "Frame to Frame" splicing tape and a CIR splicer (brand new or used, doesn't matter). I've seen too many butt splices stretch a bit over use and create an obvious gap which can and have broke during projection. At bare minimum such a splice will pop the audio. ALL projectors I have worked with handle them like a charm. Anyone saying otherwise is working with junk or doesn't have the gate adjusted properly. (I'm sure Gordon will be along in a minute to list off a bunch of machines no one has ever heard of before that *supposedly* cannot handle an overlap splice (but somehow are able to handle overlap cement splices). Of course he uses CIR splicers, so that should be taken into account. Let's see how long it takes him to post.) By the way, this has been beaten to death before and neither side is going to budge. If Gordon gets a print with an overlap splice, he will chop out 2 frames and remake it with a butt splice that has a sliver of a gap. If I get a print with such a splice, I am going to whack out 2 frames and remake it overlap. Then again, most theaters are taught if they see an ultrasonic splice...even if it is on the frameline...that they must throw out those 2 frames and remake it with a tape splice (of either kind). It's a never ending situation.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-03-2003 11:15 PM                     Cir splicers rule(except for UltraSonic) and the Marble white one is the worse. When properly set up and maintained they produce a flawless splice and the best tape is the JackRoe (CPI and others) and perferably in the 8perf version As fo overlaps well most machines with felt(velvet) gate bands don't like them (the studio standard by the way) nor do some straight gate machines such as the Prevost P55 and the like Also there was a certain straight gate turretted version of the XL that would tear perfs if there was an overlap Also several digital readers don't like the overlap as it puts them out of focus and the stiffness disturbs the tight loop damper Over lap splices with tape also exceed the specification of exactly 2 film tickness clearances on pads  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 11:20 PM                     That was fast. Here we go again. CIR splicers are worse than a pair of scissors and a paper clip! I had Gordon make me a sample splice at ShoWest on a brand new genuine CIR splicer with Jack Roe clear tape and the quality of that splice was plain and simple. I would never allow a splice of that quality in a booth I ran. I will give you that an 8 perf tape is preferred. However Neumade does not as of yet make an 8 perf splicer, so what good is 8 perf tape if there is no good splicer to use it on? Has anyone actually done a proper poll to find out just how many screening rooms have velvet gate bands? I'm betting it is not as common as Gordon would like to believe. I have tried the velvet trick and it did not make any visible difference on PA35. I am familiar with the "evil gate" on that certain version of the XLs with TU2000 turrets (vintage mid 80's). I have one theater still running them. (Pat Moore, is there an upgrade for this?) I tried making loops with a butt splice and an overlap splice and guess what...the overlap splice actually held together a little bit longer before ripping perforations. (This was back in the days of acetate.) I don't know where you got your results from, but I did not turn up with the same findings. I have not had any problems with any of the 3 digital formats dropping out at an overlap splice, or even a splice made with opaque tape. Might I recommend you double check your reader alignments? A cement splice is thicker than 2 film thicknesses. On top of that, many projectionists will tape OVER a cement splice. Pad rollers should be set to spin completely freely with 2 layer's clearance and still spin, but be just a hair snug with 3 layers. Set them that way and you will never have a problem.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-03-2003 11:28 PM                     Actually that was the bottom of the line CIR and in fact I was holding it in my hand due to lack of space As for neumade not making a 8 perf splicer that knocks them off the block and lastime I checked they also didn't offer different perf styles such as B&H and Fox As for velvet it is common on all the Kinotons up here even in several theatres that use them as well standard on ernamann 12 and 15 As for reader alignment they usually track at around 1 to 1.5 and I have never seen a reader that dras will not show a reversion (abit very momentary) on a splice in the log As for pad clearance it is 2 not 3 and a cement splice is actually slightly thinner than two thicknesses  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 01-03-2003 11:30 PM                        Sorry, I didn't mean for this to turn into a debate about different splicers or splicing techniques (which I know has been debated plenty). But carry on. Rephrased: Assuming a correctly-made butt splice, is a "jump" in the image when the splice goes through 100% preventable in all cases, on all projectors?  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 11:34 PM                     Not on all. From what I've worked with (Gordon could list a bunch of oddball projectors though) the Christie is the only gate that is difficult to make a splice that does not have a tiny "bounce" to the image as it runs through. It CAN be done, but the alignment must be precise. Most projectors (Century is the best) are fairly forgiving and won't jump the picture. Still though, the projector, the quality of the splice, the splicer and the splicing tape has a huge amount to do with what you are asking. You really need to set more specifics to get a proper answer.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-03-2003 11:35 PM                     Actually this "butt" issue has been whacked to death  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 01-03-2003 11:37 PM                    When editors prep a workprint for a screening they generally use the Inviso splicer devised by Walter Murch.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 11:42 PM                     Steve, got a link for the Inviso splicer? Gordon, I asked you if you felt that was a quality splice and you said "YES"! Don't start making excuses now. Remember, there were witnesses to attest that you were pleased with that splice. I can understand a rep house needing a splicer with odd sized perfs, but in a typical multiplex, you knocking Neumade "off of the block" is ridiculous. So just because they don't make an 8 perf splicer with the option of odd sized perf holes that a regular multiplex will NEVER use, that multiplex should automatically refuse to purchase the best unit on the market? Oh yeah, I love your reasoning. ("Screw quality, that company doesn't make a fox hole splicer!") Someone please tell me right now if the CURRENT line of Kinotons require velvet bands? I am pretty sure they don't, but if they do, they will be on my list of "do not buy". I was not impressed with the whole velvet thing. What a huge hassle with no payoff! BTW Gordon, will they run an overlap splice, or is it that they are pouty and do not like them? I'm curious as I'm betting they WILL run them. 2 thicknesses...I don't care what book you pulled that out of, I have always been shown by every tech I have worked with "between 2-3 thicknesses" and that rule of thumb has never let me down. Regarding the SRD dropouts, stop looking at your computer, turn off the exciter/led, go downstairs and LISTEN TO THE SOUND as a splice goes through! Did you hear a revision to silence? What? You mean you didn't hear any glitch in the sound but your computer still said that there was a revision? Then....... ......because nobody but you cares.  |  IP: Logged Jason Black Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1723 From: Myrtle Beach, SC, USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 01-04-2003 12:00 AM                        Nice Edit Brad... LOL... You must have posted just as I read it....  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-04-2003 08:19 AM                     The Neumade 35-CS will do CinemaScope perfs...dunno if they have a B-H version...I've never seen it advertised in the states. I like 8-perf splices due to the invisibility but would never use one since it guarantees that the Dolby Digital track will drop out. Steve  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 01-04-2003 10:18 AM                    It would still throw you out of focus for 2 frames unless you did one side only so I don't see much advantage. Can't find any links to the Inviso only references to it. The Inviso is basically a standard editor's block splicer (using perforated tape) but the design is modified for hmmm...was it 1-perf or 2-perf splices?  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-04-2003 10:26 AM                     Steve, They are two perf splices. They also bounce when going through many projectors, including both Century, and Simplex. No one seems to have sucessfully made an ultrasonic butt splice as of yet...... The LF theatres also use that width of tape. Brad, I am assuming that Gord failed to mention that those dang CIR splicers ONLY work north of the border. Thats why it failed for him in Nevada. Mark  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-04-2003 11:40 AM                     The actaul width of the large format tape is the outside of 3 perfs It is normally located so that it covers 2 and the edge is eq distant between the two outside perfs Also I have yet to find two of those neumade pieces of junk sawtoothed specials that actually can produce interchangeable cuts between them  |  IP: Logged

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