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Author Topic: Millenium with a noisy HDS bearing Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 01-19-2003 10:17 AM                     I have a Simplex Millenium with a noisy P-6693 bearing on the horizontal drive shaft. The problem as i see it in getting this bearing off, is it being necessary to remove or at least loosen so that it can be moved, the large P-1540 gear so that the bearing can be taken off the shaft. (Vertical shaft has, of course, been removed). It looks to me, from the drawings like this gear is press-fitted in place and secured to the horizontal shaft with a drive key. No way can one get a gear puller in there. I assume that a slight hammering is in order here to drive the shaft out of the operating side of the projector. Anyone found an easy way to do this? Also any generic numbers for this bearing? Thanks for any help. BTW thanks to Paul for the suction-gun oil-removal method, changed the oil draining time from 5 minutes to about 5 seconds.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-19-2003 11:02 AM                     Rick, Use a driver thats just slightly smaller than the O.D. of the bearing. Usually a socket from your soclet set works out well. See, you really do need a hammer to repair the darn things! I never much liked the arrangement in the bottom of a Simplex much....the bearings should really float in there and be properly preloaded by a three legged spring. I think some of the earlier Simplex's had this arrangement, but that bearing still has to be knocked out anyway, and the preload spring is about useless to do its job properly. New gaskets and better bearings than the 10 cent specials that are installed at the factoy are in order. Also while you have the verticle shaft out you might want to carefully check the lower bearing and the shutter compensator bearings as well. Have seen many failures of the lower vert. shaft bearing and compensator rear bearings...the one by the shutter. Hope this helps. P.S., The suction gun thing is ok, but does not allow the gunk in the bottom of the sump to flow out!! Rinse the sump if you drain them that way....in fact rinse it anyway!! You'll find that'll take the oil change back to about 5 min anyway. Mark @ CLACO www.clacoequipment.com  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 01-19-2003 11:22 AM                     Thanks, Mark. I was thinking of using a wooden dowel (okay, so the booth broom handle will be slightly shorter than it was). You are right about the sump. Have found so many of these things clogged, that we now do it as a matter of routine, every time we change the oil.  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 01-19-2003 01:24 PM                     Mark's point about bearing quality brings up an interesting point. Many years ago, I had the pleasure of visiting the Strong plant in Ohmaha, just before they moved from the mid-town location to their new plant. I met with one of their engineers, (the name Dwayne or Dwight seems to come to mind). He was quite a brilliant man. He mentioned that when replacing bearings in sound equipment, one should only use "sound-tested" bearings. I nodded knowingly, in agreement (of course not having a clue what the hell a sound-tested bearing was, but assuming it was a specialized bearing with low noise - made sense to use such a bearing in sound equipment). Every bearing supplier I have talked to since, however look at me like I am on drugs (and I am not! well, not much anyways) when I ask them if they stock "sound-tested" bearings. Was this some dry mid-west humor that went over my head, or are there such things?  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 01-19-2003 06:06 PM                     Rick, I think there might be, just like a roll test. The making of a bearing with the metallurgy (sp?) technology, the manufacturers of a given bearing can predict quite accurately how long a bearing will run before it wears out. That has been known for years. Ever notice that a rear axle bearing in an automobile seems go go HS at about 100,000 miles? Consistantly?  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-19-2003 07:55 PM                     Rick, I ahe the same problem in Christie projectors with bearing failure....especially out here where it is quite dry. When I replace them(no, you don't have to get em fomr Christie) I always use a bearing with a rubber seal on it. This has cut down the number of service calls drastically and our customers are alot happier. I reccommend this in all places where the rubber seal will not give unwanted drag....such as in sound head scanners......there all you can use is a shield...preferably on one side only. A higher spec bearing....say ABEC 9 could be used in soundheads, but probably with little advantage...and a whole lot more cost. I use rubber seal bearings in Christie platter motors where the bearings are exposed to all the graphite dust of the always wearing brushes. The motors bearings will last far longer. Probably into the second armature job on the motor itself. The secret I believe in the Simplex is to properly pre-load the bearings....and with the tight fit of that bore is impossible to do properly without enlarging the bore a bit. Mark @ CLACO www.clacoequipment.com  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 01-19-2003 11:11 PM                     Mark, you speak of "pre-loading" a bearing. I am not familiar with that term. What does that involve?  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 01-20-2003 08:25 AM                    He means that there is a spring washer (sometimes more than one, and if so they should be placed for maximum effect, not "spooning") in the bore behind the bearing.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-20-2003 08:52 AM                     Rick, There is an optimum load against the races of the bearing to get the maximum life fomr the bearing. When a bearing id pressed into the bore as in the case and another on the other side there is no meaningfl fit, nor load on the bearing. Too much pre-load can cause premature bearing failure as in your case. A good example of peoper preloading is the Bodine Christie platter motor. It uses a series of cupped washers against the bottom bearing to provide proper pre-load. The only problem with those motots is that they become full of carbon dust fomr the normal wear of the brushes, and that dust eventually finds its way into the bearing. Mark @ CLACO www.clacoequipment.com Mark  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 01-21-2003 11:57 PM                     I found that on the old original X-L's they used the same P-1409 bearing on both ends of the shaft. Also noticed how much better they were built too (no dropping that spacer behind the oil junction into the oil on those - the junction was molded to fit). On the Millenium however, the outer bearing (towards the drive belt idler pulley) (the one that felt like it was full of rough pebbles) calls for a P-6693 type. Not having one of those in stock, I pulled the bearing and compared it to the P-1409 (the one on the film compartment side). They looked the same size (yeah i know, a great way to judge bearings). On the P6693, I searched for a number something I could sub - no dice, not even a "Made in China" marking. No calling the bearing distributor to see if he had one, this would require calipers. Unlike the inner bearing which had shields on both sides, this one had no sheilds at all. It was past 4 and Toronto rush-hour was in full swing. It was a case of find the proper bearing the next day or go with a second P-1409 I had with me. Made a decision to try it with the P-1409. Short story - ran just fine. After reading Mark's post about bearing pre-loading, I am wondering why they would have changed the type of bearing on the side with the most stess.  |  IP: Logged Pat Moore Master Film Handler Posts: 363 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 01-23-2003 07:35 PM                     Rick -- I think the P6693 is a shielded or sealed bearing, with shield or sealed side towards the pulley. Can't remember, have to look when I'm back in the office. The P1409 can be an open bearing. There have been different combinations used over many years by us and previous owners of the projector. I'll try and look at that tomorrow and make a post then. Maybe Dick remembers? Pat  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 01-23-2003 11:47 PM                     Thank you, Pat.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-24-2003 01:51 AM                     Rick, Get a bearing with a rubber seal on one side only to put towards the drive pulley, and open(no seal, or shield on the oil side. That way the rubber seal will keep any belt particles from getting into the bearing if the shaft seal wears....which they typically do. I've seen that area on X-L's all gunked up with rubber particles mixed with oil! Yuck! And it wears out sels, and stuff fast too. A new seal there is also in order and only costs a few bucks. It presses out of, and back into the bearing retainer. Some of the older retainers had bearings that were glued/siliconed into the retiner...I have not seen one in quite a long time, but be on the lookout for that style. Its best to replace the bearing and retainer with the new style if you run into that type. Mark @ CLACO www.clacoequipment.com  |  IP: Logged John T. Mellor Film Handler Posts: 52 From: Htafield, Pennsylvania, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 01-24-2003 08:35 AM                     The bearing retainer is also the part that sets the pre load on the bearing the inner part of the retainer is in contact with the outer race of the bearing. The operator side of the shaft should have a spring washer to push the bearing and shaft into the proper position and load on the bearings . The differance in the part numbers is the differane in the same bearing ,no shields , one shield [metal], two shields Most bearing manufatures use the ZZ metoud of designating shileded bearings ie. 6201 no shields , 6201Z one side shielded,6201ZZ both sides shielded There is another designation for the seals [rubber] that Mark spoke of in an eairler post but the letter designation escapes my old brain right now. Using a better grade bearing and changing the oil on a regular basis can extend the life of the machines for a long time,I have two XL's that were made in 1950-51 and they run better that the new one's  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-24-2003 08:49 AM                     Actually there is a 3, or 4 legged spring thatas against the race of the film side bearing that does the preload. The problem I've seen is that the bearing bore is a bit oo tight and that outer bearing eentually freezes up in the bore and doesn't allow the preload spring to do its job..... I'll post pictures later today so you can see what I mean as we have a pile of X-L's going through rebuild in the shop right now. Mark @ CLACO www.clacoequipment.com  |  IP: Logged

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