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Author Topic: when customers compare home with cinema Carl King Expert Film Handler Posts: 199 From: Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada Registered: Mar 2000 posted 01-29-2003 10:51 AM                     In a recent post an infrequent filmgoer had much to commplain about a mulitplex matinee. He appeared quite enamoured of his home system. I'm glad he likes it but he should do some research before he compares. Recently a patron came to my booth on a tour. He mentioned that he had watched a recent film and that there had been no surround sound. When he mentioned this to me we were standing next to the projector/sound system on which he had see his film and indeed the same film was playing. With this man observing I checked the the monitor and sound was coming from all appropriate places and told him that our equipment was fine and queried him as to why he thought there was no surround. He stated that he sat through the entire movie and heard no sound from any of the side speakers. I can't remember the name of the picture but it was a "talky" picture with no need for lots of ambient sound. I told him this and he said that he thought that the sound was supposed to come from all speakers at the same time just like his home system. I then told him that I knew what his problem was. His home system was set up wrong. At least this gentleman had the good sense to ask a question and not just complain. Wouldn'ty it be nice if more people asked to be informed instead of just comnplaining?  |  IP: Logged Aaron Sisemore Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day! Posts: 3061 From: Rockwall TX USA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 01-29-2003 11:58 AM                     I used to get these idiots all the time , especially during Woody Allen films (mono, even in digital). When told that this was the way the film was mixed I get the usual 'but i get talking in all my speakers on my home theatre' I then simply shrug my shoulders and walk away. -Aaron  |  IP: Logged Mark J. Marshall Film God Posts: 3188 From: New Castle, DE, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 01-29-2003 12:26 PM                    We had someone come up to our box office and ask "Do you have digital sound?" The box office person of course said "Yes" without thinking that some MOVIES are playing in digital sound, and some aren't.  |  IP: Logged Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-29-2003 12:41 PM                     I love it when people come and ask if we have "THX Digital Sound". When we say, "No, but we have DTS Digital Sound" they get this perplexed look. Then sometimes you overhear the morons who count the surround speakers on the wall and determine that it's "x.1 Surround" to their friends. Too many people believe what they hear in the stores. =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 01-29-2003 12:43 PM                     It is wrong to do this comparison. Although we have to admit that some technicians (not anyone in here I believe) are really careless and they just want to finish the installation and get the money instead of caring for EXCELLENT presentation. Most people have DOLBY PROLOGIC decoders at their home, and that does derive sound to all the speakers if the film is stereo on DVD or even in VIDEO or even in normal TV channels. Someone though that has a digital decoder at home and has a film playing in Dolby Digital or even better DTS (that's for Karen) will definately hear the difference. I too have to admit that in some theaters which play the film in digital, the sound is not as clear and as "full" in all frequencies like some people's home cinemas I know. Of course I do admit that is not the projectionist fault but mainly the technician's. If they don't do a good job then the sound will not be as crispy and as rich in depth while Digital Decoders in home cinema's can easily be configured since they have preset DSP's. BUT ... Even worse, the problem with bad sound quality in a theater also derives from the "scroogeness" of theater owners wanting to install cheap equipment. At a theater here we have JBL center speakers, KSC surrounds and the Power Amplifiers cannot handle the whole power load since they clip all the time even when playing the sound in 5. Most people should ask though to be more educated and not making foolish and wrong comparisons and judging the theater presentation. Sorry. Too long writing this time See ya  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 01-29-2003 01:25 PM                        Dolby Pro-Logic uses the exact same matrix to decode surround as Dolby A and Dolby SR surround do in the Dolby processor that's in your projection booth. Pro-Logic does not have the voice or any other sound in all speakers simultaneously unless it was mixed that way. Dolby Pro-Logic 2 is quite impressive, however.  |  IP: Logged Don Bruechert Mmmmmmmmm, bird! Posts: 340 From: Manitowoc, WI, USA Registered: Jan 2003 posted 01-29-2003 01:37 PM                        I have done my share of sound work over the years, with working in a stage-theatre, for a rock band, selling home audio, car audio and the like that I have developed my own "tastes". I think the whole sound issue is a really opinionated topic. I have mixed for bands where the guys come up and say "my friends say they can't hear me playing", and there's always someone in every crowd that wants to tell you how to do your job. Fact is, even the guys who mix movies have an opinion of how things should sound and it may differ from yours or mine. I prefer listening to movies at home in my own "home theatre" becuase I can tweak things to be the way *I* want them to be. I will gout of my way to look for DTS logos on DVD's when I am tossed up between two movies because the sound is so much better. However I much prefer to watch the movies on the big screen at the theater, and will generally watch a movie and if I like it I will add it to my collection at home. I have been trying to improve our presentation from a quality picture standpoint by learning as much as I can and fixing problems with how we do things as I find them (and if I can), but since I started at the theater I have been "tweaking" the sound systems so that they sound better, much to the annoyance of the guy who was supposed to be training me who said "These systems are all calibrated by factory technicians - don't mess with the amps". My response of course was that it might "sound" great to an oscilloscope, but to an ear it might sound like crap. I have all the "baseline" settings marked so I can easily go back there, but from time to time there is a movie where the music and effects are great but you just can't hear the dialog. You can't just grab the master and turn up the juice a notch because then you will get complaints it is too loud, but just a little tweak to the gain of the center channel amp can leave the patrons with a good listening experience. Same thing goes for the surround channels, etc.... Die Another day was a good example (in our place) of a movie that had surround effects that would rip your head off combined with quiet dialog.... taking just a touch off the gain of the surround amp got rid of the customer complaints of it being too loud without turning the whole thing down so they couldn't hear the rest. In my humble opinion, if you have a person on hand that knows how the audio systems work, and cares enough to twiddle with them a bit it makes for a happier audience. It is a good feeling to have people come up to you on the street and say "That movie sounded really awesome." In our place we have 6 screens. 2 DTS, 1 SDDS, 1 Stereo (if that) and 2 Ultra Stereo. Some of them will also handle 1 display format better than others. The owner assigns the films to the houses based mostly on the seating capacity he thinks will be needed and the expected age of the patrons, but he lives in a bigger town and I feel (based on going to movies for 30 some years) that I have a pretty good feel for what is going to go over in our town, and I have been known to move them around taking the screen format and sound quality (as well as age of patrons for the tower) into consideration. For just this coming week he had "Final Destination" in the plain stereo house and "Just Married" in the Ultra Stereo house - there is a 10 seat difference and a couple flights of stairs. I switched them because I felt the customers would have a much better experience in Final Destination with a better sound system. Just Married is more of a dialog movie with few special effects..... I think little things like this can make a big difference in customer enjoyment. Sorry for the long post!  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 01-29-2003 02:13 PM                        You probably had to turn the center channel up because you had tweaked the other channels. Setting up and aligning a sound system is far more complex than turning individual channels up and down. You should not do that! If dialogues are hard to understand on a system, it might also be caused by bad equalisation. You said that in your experience different musicians like different mixes and so do movie sound mixers. True, but their individual ideas will only be reflected if the sound system is well calibrated to the standards they had in the studio. You should not remix movies in your theater!  |  IP: Logged Dustin Mitchell Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1865 From: Mondovi, WI, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 01-29-2003 02:16 PM                     I recieve at least a complaint every month about the 'surrounds not working.' It gets annoying having to explain it over and over again.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-29-2003 02:27 PM                     I also get a bit of a kick from the home stereo enthusiasts who will spend hours making sure that the levels are within 0.00000001% of 1db to reference...and yet they don't even have an EQ anywhere on their system. Pretty funny how they have brainwashed themselves to believe that they are "tuning" the system and how it suddenly sounds SO much better.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-29-2003 02:43 PM                        So what do others think about "tweaking" sound systems to "improve" movie sound? Exhibitors certainly have a responsibility to the director, DP, and sound mixer to reproduce picture and sound as closely as possible to how they were reproduced in the studio screening room, at least as far as available equipment allows. On the other hand, they also have a responsibility to their customers to make movies sound "good"; otherwise, their customers will take their business elsewhere. Personally, I wouldn't touch EQ or individual channel levels on a system which is known to be "properly" calibrated and which "normally" sounds good. If one particular film sounds bad on a system which sounds fine with most films, then one can assume that the problem is with the mix and not the reproduction system. On the other hand, I do adjust the main fader setting to a "comfortable" level (not necessarily 7.0) and I don't run trailers in digital. Having said all that, if the sound system is old and hasn't been serviced in a long time and doesn't sound good anyway (usually in older mono houses), I'll tweak what I can to make the dialogue intelligible and the music sound...umm...musical. In other words, I'll only adjust something if it can't possibly be made to sound any worse than it already does.  |  IP: Logged William Leland III Master Film Handler Posts: 336 From: Charleston, SC, Registered: Aug 2002 posted 01-29-2003 05:07 PM                        I can see how customers can make comparisons to Theatre sound vs. Home Cinema sound. I have heard some unbelievable Home Cinema sound systems. I was blown away by some of my friends home stereo's. I was like this sounds better than our theatre equipment. True they do have an EQ, so that helps. To be honest if the Home Cinema sounds is good, I'd rather be at home than a theatre. I have a question. What are the real differences between DTS,SDDS and Dolby Digital?? What I mean is the sound, not channels or what is printed on film or disc. That I know. It is just more more channels, is that the difference.  |  IP: Logged Paul Konen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 981 From: Frisco, TX. (North of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-29-2003 05:15 PM                     I think the main thrust of this thread is when Mr/Mrs Moviegoer comes out of their movie and says the surrounds aren't working. We dutifully go and listen to the monitor and report to the floor that they are working fine. Once movie is over, Mr/Mrs Moviegoer come out and want rainchecks because of this. I have never asked, why they think they are not working, but may do that in the future. I, too, think they compare to their home setup which may be done incorrectly.  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 01-29-2003 06:25 PM                     There are many points to be covered here... When people ask me about sound, I make the simplist attempt that I can to explain what THX, DTS, SDS and SRD are. I also try, in laymans terms, to explain how both the sound system components as well as the auditorium architecture all come together in a package to create quality sound. Generally speaking, many people have thanked me because my laymans explaiation clearifies many points. But for a twist... For a while, I was doing some cinema reviews in Tucson. In one major theater, the Century Park Place 20, I tend to ask the floor staff if they could tell me what digital system (DTS, SDDS or SRD)is playing in the particular auditorium that I am attending, since it is not advertised. Of all the times that I have been to this theater, their floor staff never fails to be braindead and is clueless to my question! On one occasion, a floor person told me that the digital sound system is THX. I told him that I knew that all auditoriums are THX certified, but what I wanted to know was what digital format is being used. This clueless floor staff tried to b.s. me, and I simply ended up walking away. What is even funnier about this theater is that every time I have been there, the presentation has been flawed. I usually approach an assistant manager and ask to speak to the "projectionist" so that the problem(s) could be rectified. Believe it or not, the assistant managers are usually "unable" to contact the "projectionist" by radio...and they simply and politely offer me a free readmit. And finally, I have asked floor staff the name of thier G.M. or the ranking manager on the premisis. Generally speaking, the floor staff does not even know the name of the G.M.! how sad! Another point. Tucson is the proud home of The Tucson Pops Orchastra, founded by Georges Deemester and been around since the mid 1950's and provides free concert seasons twice a year (fall and spring). These are open air concerts in the park and is attended by thousands. The City of Tucson, Tucson Parks and Recreation, other sponsers and public donations all help to prepatuate these concerts...enough bragging . Anyhow, The City of Tucson Parks and Recreation provide the soundsystems and stage hands, and they do a pretty decent job. When the sound system if properly adjusted, there is enough delay in the system so that you cannot tell that the sound is comming from the speakers...rather they just help to boost the sound. There are speakers stage right and left, as well as down in the audience. Anyhow, the morle of the story, the purpose of surround is to recreate the "natural setting and not to beable to pinpoint sound to a specific speaker. Finally, I have seen people spend a small fortune on stereo equipment, but the design, architecture, and acoustics of their listening area were just terrible, resulting in their high priced system sounding no better than a $100.00 el cheapo unit!  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 01-29-2003 06:39 PM                     From my own experiences I know two things are certain: 1. Few people know what they need in order to set up a home theater system properly and get the appropriate kind of sound playback. 2. The number of commercial theaters that have well tuned sound systems and a knowledgeable staff is also a rare thing. It is pretty funny when someone who just bought a DVD setup last week thinks he's now an expert on movie theater sound --just like the guys who expect surrounds to be on during a mono Woody Allen movie. More consumer education needs to happen on the home theater front. It is also pretty bad if you walk up to a theater ticket counter and ask if a movie is playing in a certain sound format, or if it is in the THX house and be told by the box person, "it doesn't matter." If I get a brush-off like that, I probably won't visit that theater again. I may not have all the available EQ settings in my home system that a well equipped commercial system may boast. But I can set the volume level and other adjustments how I like. My biggest complaint with a lot of commercial theaters is the volume being turned down too low. Some fellow with a stick in his ass complains and what everyone else gets is a presentation featuring the sound impact of a small Philco TV set. After awhile many managers will just keep the sound turned down low. At least I'm within driving distance of a couple good theaters that at least keep the sound up at a good dramatic level. In the end, my biggest complaint is against certain stupid, ignorant customers who, in spite of bad past experiences, will continue to visit the same flea-bag dump of a theater over and over again. They don't vote with their dollars responsibly. So we see great quality theaters get closed down and very poor quality multiplexes continue well on into the future. With the proliferation of DVD and home theater to the masses, one would have thought the audiences would have become much more saavy and sophisticated. One would have thought customers would finally become discrimating against low grade theaters and naturally gravitate to the theaters doing film right. I still see morons just driving to what ever multiplex is closest. I guess they think all movie theaters are the same and have the same equipment.  |  IP: Logged

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