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Author Topic: MUT Tension Problem Tom Doyle Expert Film Handler Posts: 176 From: Bristol, CT, USA Registered: Nov 2002 posted 02-06-2003 12:59 PM                     I'm having a problem with building prints. Every time I build one up, the print is wound VERY tightly. So tightly, it is hard to get the center ring off. The bulge in the print is so large, I sometimes have to push the print a little off-center so it will feed properly at the beginning on the first time through. I can only partially eliminate the problem by winding *very* slowly. I assume the problem is way too much tension from the make-up table, but I don't know how to adjust this. The make-up tables we are using are Xetrons. They do not have a model number but I believe they came with the platters we are using, XNR-335s. Is anyone familiar with this? Thanks in advance for any help you can give!  |  IP: Logged Don Bruechert Mmmmmmmmm, bird! Posts: 340 From: Manitowoc, WI, USA Registered: Jan 2003 posted 02-06-2003 01:12 PM                        I wouldn't think the speed at which you are making up the film would be as critical to how tight the film is wound as would be the resistance to motion you are encountering from components in the feed path. I would suggest to check all of the rollers the film passes thru on the way to the platter to be sure they are all properly lubricated and loose, and also check the spindle you have the supply reel mounted on to be sure it turns freely. If there is resistance to the film coming off the reel easily iwould cause the tight wind problem that you speak of, and you would notice the problem get worse as you go faster because the platter is pulling harder. We had this problem a while back and it turned out the supposedly freely rotating supply spindle on the table had not been lubricated in eons...  |  IP: Logged Tom Doyle Expert Film Handler Posts: 176 From: Bristol, CT, USA Registered: Nov 2002 posted 02-06-2003 01:21 PM                     Well, thanks for the fast reply. I build prints directly onto the platter, so the film only passes over two rollers from the reel to the platter. My first guess was too much tension from a tight motor belt, but I didn't see any adjustment for that. I'll have to check the spindles on the MUTs. What should I be lubricating the spindle and rollers with? (When a roller is sticking, I use WD-40 since we don't have any 'official' stuff lying around.)  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 02-06-2003 01:39 PM                        Tom Doyle wrote: quote: I use WD-40 since we don't have any 'official' stuff lying around.) Duck and cover.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 02-06-2003 02:23 PM                        Yes, WD40 should only be used on the prints themselves. That's what John Pytlak at Kodak recommends (stopwatch running NOW to see how fast John replies to that one). Anyway, you could try WD40 on the spindle to see if it loosens up. It is not a lasting lubricant so if it does loosen up I'd recommend regular projector oil if you have any. I am not an oil expert so perhaps someone else could give a better answer.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 02-06-2003 03:22 PM                        If you want to leach the dyes out of color print film, use lubricants like WD-40 on the film. Color dyes are oil soluble! Often you will see a magenta coloration if you wipe off an oily print with a white tissue --- that's the magenta image dye! Oily lubricants can also make dirt stick to the print, and cause the film to stick to itself, so winding an even roll becomes difficult. "Oil Mottle" is a known problem when projector oil gets on prints, and shows up as blotches on the projected image: http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/cleaning.shtml http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/technical/hand2.shtml  |  IP: Logged Gordon Bachlund Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 696 From: Monrovia, CA, USA Registered: Aug 1999 posted 02-06-2003 06:49 PM                        A very light misting of WD-40 spruces up a dry gin martini rather nicely, but be careful as too much will overpower the subtle nuance of a lemon twist or a stuffed olive. I wonder if Bob Marr has tried this?  |  IP: Logged Scott Balko Expert Film Handler Posts: 136 From: Redwood Falls, Minnesota, USA Registered: Apr 2000 posted 02-06-2003 09:23 PM                     Tom, I too have the XNR-335 platters and the Xetron Mut you are referring too. There is no tensioner on the drive belt, but check to see if the belt is too tight. If it is, this will put excessive drag on the supply reel. The bearings on the reel spindle are sealed, so if one of those is tight, you will have to replace it. Also, when you turn the knob to start the platter motor, don't give it too much all at once. Bring the speed up gradually. Hard acceleration will spin the center ring in the film roll and tighten the roll every time you start winding another reel. This problem gets worse the more reels you have on the platter as the sheer weight of the roll will resist enough to allow the platter to spin under the film. The mut takes a 3L-400 belt. While it gives nice free feed to the platter, it sucks for tear-down as it will bearly pull the last couple of reels off. I use a 3L-390 belt for teardown, but you have to leave the motor a little loose or belt tension will be too much and you'll either smoke the motor or the bearings. Hope this helps.  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 02-06-2003 11:33 PM                     Tom, I scrapped my Xetron MUT's before I even applied power to them to see if they worked when they were new. Although I think Xetron made a great platter, Xetron sure missed the boat on the MUTs. Rather than to mess with that thing, use an old CFS table or a Strong MUT for assembling your show. WD-40? That stuff is only good for using it as a blow torch to kill the flies in the booth. If I ever caught any of my operators in the booth using that crap on the machinery, I would suspend them from the booth long enough so they could make an appointment with their protologist to remove the WD-40 can from their rear end.  |  IP: Logged Christopher Duvall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 500 From: Denver, CO Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-07-2003 04:19 AM                     I think I need to take your stance with my projectionists Paul. BTW, did you train my trainer, because I think I am still trying to remove my can of WD-40 to this day. The only reason I keep WD-40 in my office is to erase permanent marker off the employee breakroom dry-erase board. There is always some dumbass that uses a Sharpie on my dry-erase boards. I swear, I feel like I am surrounded by morons every once in a while.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 02-07-2003 06:59 AM                        MSDS for WD-40 aerosol: http://www.wd-40.com/Brands/pdfs/msds-wd40_aerosol.us.pdf Company website: http://www.wd-40.com  |  IP: Logged Gordon Bachlund Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 696 From: Monrovia, CA, USA Registered: Aug 1999 posted 02-07-2003 01:10 PM                        Thanks, John. The MSDS explains the unpleasant after effects of ingurgitating too many martinis garnished with WD-40.  |  IP: Logged Tom Doyle Expert Film Handler Posts: 176 From: Bristol, CT, USA Registered: Nov 2002 posted 02-09-2003 08:21 PM                     Ok, I get the idea - no WD-40. When I asked our theater's former projectionist about sticky rollers, this is what he advised. I did ask in the above post what I should use to lubricate rollers, but no responses - well, what do you use? All we have in the booth is Century projector oil. I use this for the intermittant and sprockets, but I assume this is a bit on the heavy side for rollers? This is a sub-run theater, so no chance of us scrapping the old tables for new ones. Scott, thanks for the tips! I believe the belt is a bit on the tight side, but I did not find any adjustment for it. This was pretty much what I was asking about. I'll be more mindful of the acceleration - perhaps this will help, and I'll have to check over the spindles when I have free time at work. (We use two tables, and both seem to give the same results. Luckily, we have a third for parts.)  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 02-09-2003 08:54 PM                     If the rollers have sealed bearings, the answer is nothing. On open-case bearings, I have used a light application of projector oil, and never had any problems with it. Some people use light weight non-detergent motor oil, but I have mixed feelings on that. Some use graphite, and I have mixed feelings on that, too. So, unless someone has a better idea that makes sense, I'll stick to projector oil. If you are running a Christie that has no bearings in the rollers, don't lubricate them. If they get stuck, just remove the c-clip from the shaft, remove the roller, use a "Q" tip and warm soapy water to clean the bore. Rinse when done, and don't forget to clean the shaft. I understand that many cleaning chemicals will damage the Christie rollers, but nobody ever told me what to use and what not to use. Even rubbing alcohol will damage some types of plastic. WD-40.....HAH! When Regal bought us, in marched a case of WD-40! When the person who brought it into the booth left, I marched the whole case right straight out the door and heaved it in the trash masher. Roger, now you know what happened to that case when you guys bought Southsound in Port Orchard........  |  IP: Logged Tom Doyle Expert Film Handler Posts: 176 From: Bristol, CT, USA Registered: Nov 2002 posted 02-11-2003 09:08 PM                     Thanks, Paul! The first post with a useful suggestion - much more helpful than several posts telling me what I shouldn't use . I assumed the projector oil was too heavy, but I'll use it next time I need it. (OK everybody, I promise - no more WD-40 near film or film equipment.)  |  IP: Logged

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