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Author Topic: Non-Standard Practices (a.k.a. We Don't Need No Stinking X-Curve!) Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-16-2003 06:35 PM                     Well, I've been reading the PDF documents by John Allen (the links are posted on page 2 of the "Mic Placement" thread) and, I have to admit, I'm inspired to experiment a little. So... What are some of YOUR "cheats" when you EQ an auditorium? Do you calibrate at a number other than "7" so that the movies will play at "7" when you're done? (I've done this a couple of times.) Do you privilege certain frequencies to make dialogue stand out? (Done that, too.) Do you have unusual microphone placement? (Not yet, but I'm willing to experiment.) Would you use Cat. 69P to generate pink noise for EQ'ing? (Would this work?) SPECIAL REQUEST: Let's consider anything that's non-standard to be a "cheat." One more thing: In the interest of collecting as many "confessions" as possible, maybe we ought to go easy on the smack-downs. EXCEPTION: If something is just flat-out wrong or very strange then maybe it's in the best interest to say so and/or request clarification. It will be understood that these are non-standard practices. [ 02-19-2003, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Manny Knowles ]  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 02-16-2003 08:56 PM                     Forgive me Film-Tech for I have sinned.... Before leaving this theatre (4 hours one-way from our Toronto base), I decided to check (as is standard practice) the B-chain levels. I know for a fact that they were properly set at the time of installation, but have never understood, on subsequent checks, why they always drift from their settings. Thus, we check'em. 3:00 AM - With a house that runs from 10:00 AM till midnight, this is the only way to get any real service done. I am the only one in the theatre. Installing a Cat.85, and setting the fader to exactly 7, I switch on LEFT channel. I go downstairs with the Radio-Shack S.P.L. (C weighting, slow response). I read 82.5. Instantly, I realize that this could be a never-ending trial-and-error stair run (lotta stairs too) until i reach the proper level. Having a doctor's degree in laziness, I decide (back at the booth) to lower the monitor level with the S.P.L. meter held against the monitor speaker until i read exactly the same reading as I read in the auditorium. Then (fortunately the processor and monitor are in the same rack), I raise the output level in the processor for a reading of 85. Returning to the auditorium for verification: exactly 85 on the nose. Ditto for the other channels. I continued this proceedure for the rest of the theatres. I re-checked in the auditorium for each channel of course. Still involved quite a number of stairs, but cut the trial-and-error proceedure a lot. Edited for me grammer.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 02-16-2003 10:41 PM                    Not really a cheat since you double checked it. More like a brilliant timesaver.  |  IP: Logged Christopher Seo Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 530 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-17-2003 12:33 PM                     Manny, I wouldn't call John Allen's methods "cheats", nor would I equate non-standard methods with cheats in general. Non-standard his procedures are, but they are neither casual shortcuts nor blindly-applied guesswork, as "cheat" might imply. Rick, Your "cheat" certainly is clever but I don't understand how altering the processor levels would yield the same change in SPL from the booth monitor as from the auditorium unless the reverberant characteristics were the same. Perhaps the difference is minor, but I wonder how much of the SPL of an average auditorium is due to the reverberant field. Booth monitor compression might be an issue too. Of course, as Steve said, as long as one checks it afterward it doesn't really matter.  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 02-17-2003 08:45 PM                        You realise of course that John`s approach needs a lot of ear training and listening experience and is not an invitation for everyone to start adjusting the systems!  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 02-17-2003 10:03 PM                     John has a trained ear. He knows exactly what he is listening for.  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 02-17-2003 11:30 PM                     Christopher, You are right, of course, reverberant characteristics in the auditorium would be vastly different that those found directly in front of the monitor speaker. However, since the reading was taken in the same place in the auditorium (I knew that, because i left my pack of smokes on the seat), reading the same channel, the relative change in volume produced the same effect in both cases. (Both agreed with the increase). Also, I hasten to mention that each channel had to be checked in the auditorium before adjustment (of course) to find out how much of an increase (or decrease) was necessary. I agree that this might not happen in every case, but it worked in this instance, although there were 3 cases where I did in fact, have to make extra trips to the booth for minor trimming after the monitor test. (especially when around 7 AM I realized that I had trimmed the wrong pot). This did enable me to set levels on a 12-plex in one night, however.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-18-2003 04:53 PM                     quote: Rick Long: This did enable me to set levels on a 12-plex in one night, however. Oh! The joys of a nice, long serial cable and a laptop computer so that one can run the cable out the booth window and sit in the back few rows of the theater while making said adjustments! Computerized/Digital sound processor required. A good pair of earmuffs would likely be desireable.  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 02-18-2003 09:37 PM                     I agree Randy, IF ONLY these had been other than sealed port-holes with no way of opening them, if ONLY these had been 500's or 650's instead of 65's, if ONLY we weren't so short staffed (with the lay-off of our best technician and supervisor last year) that we could only afford to have one man on the road....."the terrible IF ONLY's accumulate" - Churchill. We screamed about the sealed port-holes. We were promised "No problem, we'll put in a 3" capped pipe between the booth and auditorium as soon as the installation is finished" We're still waiting.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-18-2003 09:52 PM                     Manny said "Well, I've been reading the PDF documents by John Allen (the links are posted on page 2 of the "Mic Placement" thread) and, I have to admit, I'm inspired to experiment a little." _________________________________________________________________ Oh no....POOR MANNY! Now he's been brainwashed!!!!!!! Of course JA assumes that none of us carry mic calibrators either.....according to his last article in B.O. but I think he'd be surprised to learn that alot more techs carry them than he thinks.....I'd also be willing to bet that if he did a study of hearing change/deterioation over a decade or so, that he'd discover that ones hearing ability is more likely the thing that IS subject to the most overall change. Rick, All you've done is to set the output levels from the processor to the same levels...assuming that the amp level pots were all in the exact same place. Unfortunately alot of auditoriums and speaker positions are not ecxactly installed symmetrically allowing one to get away with this method. For instance, if a left chan speaker is placed closer to a side wall than the right speaker is......assuming an exit at the right of the screen, or if the room itself is not symetrical..... Mark  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 02-19-2003 02:21 AM                     Mark, these were read with the switch to AMPLIFIER OUT position, and were pre-and subsequently checked IN the auditorium.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-19-2003 07:24 PM                     First -- I did not mean for it to seem as though I was calling John a cheat. I realize that it could be read that way. Sorry about the confusion. On the contrary, as I mentioned -- and as Mark pointed out -- I found John's writings to be intriguing and I even tried his technique in one of my theatres today. Here are the links that John posted in the "Mic placement" thread: http://www.hps4000.com/pages/special/missing.pdf http://www.hps4000.com/pages/general/the_mythical_x_curve.pdf http://www.hps4000.com/pages/general/toss_meters.pdf Guess what? It sounds amazing in that theatre. John says that we can't be sure what a movie is supposed to sound like, and this is true. The fact is that it sounds better in that theatre than it did last week -- or yesterday, for that matter. For the record, that system was EQ'd last week using the X curve and the official procedure. John's method took less time to carry out and it resulted in fewer EQ bands being altered. The same movie (CHICAGO) is showing in that room and it sounds much, much better today than it did yesterday. I can hear more bass than before and I can hear that the surrounds are getting in on the action without anything seeming "too present." Vocals are coming through nice and strong -- and with great clarity. Overall, the room has really come to life. The film is playing at 7 (where it was indeed calibrated). It's plenty loud without seeming so. So...Thank you, John! I'm converted. [ 02-19-2003, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Manny Knowles ]  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-19-2003 09:14 PM                     Sorry definitley not converted also I to carry a calibrator for my spl meter and one for the RTA mics  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 02-19-2003 09:54 PM                     Thank you for the links, Manny. They do indeed make for interesting reading.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-19-2003 10:12 PM                     You know...it's fine if the standard way works for you. Hey, by all means, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But the standard way of doing a B-Chain just wasn't working out for me. It's not rocket science and I'm certainly not an idiot but it just didn't provide me with good results -- I never liked what I heard with program material and I have no way of knowing what any of these movies is really supposed to sound like anyway. In the end, it came down to a balancing act of my trust in the system and trusting my own ear. In the end, my ear kept winning. So, I had to determine that the established system could only get me so far...and then, I'd be on my own. This other way just works better for me.  |  IP: Logged

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