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Author Topic: TA-10 Automation: Phantom Cue Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-20-2003 01:27 PM                     Got a Comp. Eng. TA-10 automation that's misbehaving on me: I have only 3 cues set up for this machine: Outboard Cue (Cue #1) = Pulse the "Lights OUT" relay. Center Cue (Cue #2) = Interval/End-Show cue; Pulses "Lights UP" relay; Shuts the changeover. Inboard Cue (Cue #4) = Pulse the "Lights to 1/2" relay. Problem: It's sending phantom cues (Outboard - Cue #1) and putting the lights down at seemingly random times. Have confirmed that it's the automation doing this and not the dimmer controller or its associated wiring. (Strand "Microcontrol") If the automation's power is switched off the problem never occurs. Upon entering the booth one time, I actually heard the relays inside the automation click, signaling that it was, indeed, the automation sending the call. Problem is that, at the time I witnessed the malfunction, I was not on the "driver's side" of the projector. I was across the room, unable to look underneath and see whether or not it was the cue detector that was sending false calls to the automation. (i.e. Unable to confirm that the AUTOMATION was behaving properly but the FM-35 detector was falsely calling for a cue.) I have turned the projector on, let it sit idle and stood by and watched it for several minutes and the malfunction did not occur. (Watched pots never boil! ) Later on yesterday evening, after the show had ended, the problem occurred again. It does not SEEM to happen while the projector is running, but since the lights are already down during the show, it could be happening but nobody would notice. At this point, I'm going to have to go back to the booth and try to see if I can catch it misbehaving. Otherwise, I'm going to have to disconnect the wire from the light relay COM terminal and disable ALL light control. Lights can be run manually from a wall panel, similar to a Lutron Graphic Eye but only has one channel and no ramp/fader. It's a PITA to do it this way, though. Saves you from having to dart across the room to get to the switch before the C/O opens! Anybody seen this behavior before? T.Y.F.Y.S!  |  IP: Logged Dino Panagiotopoulos Expert Film Handler Posts: 139 From: Windor, Ontario, Canada Registered: Jan 2003 posted 02-20-2003 02:42 PM                     We run TA-10 automation and Ive never run into this problem. The only time anything like this has ever occured is if we had a used print and a stray foil from the previous theater goes through. I dont know too much about the "brains" of the automation but could it be a short somewhere in the circuitry?  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 02-20-2003 02:42 PM                     I think my first step would be to replace (or exchange if a new one is unavailable) the FM-35. This at least would help to narrow down the source of the problem. Good luck, Don'tcha just love intermittent problems like this?  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 02-20-2003 02:56 PM                        I think an instable power supply for the foil reader could cause random impulses.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-20-2003 03:04 PM                     Just spent another 1/2 hour sitting by and watching. Meanwhile, I cleaned the Failsafe and made sure no stray bits of foil or metal shavings of any kind were in the area. During that 1/2 hour no malfunctions occurred. I think I'm going to engage the grounding screw (S-3) on the automation motherboard to make sure that's not the problem. (Won't do that till my next trip upstairs, though.)  |  IP: Logged Ken Layton Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1452 From: Olympia, Wash. USA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 02-20-2003 05:24 PM                     Check closely the FM-35 and it's plug-in modules for cold solder joints.  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 02-20-2003 08:26 PM                     "It does not SEEM to happen while the projector is running, but since the lights are already down during the show, it could be happening but nobody would notice." You hear the relay "clicking" yet the program is not running - weird! Did you use any diodes on the event lines that could have a grounded lead or a lead that can touch the trace for another event line? Faulty front panel switch? (Wouldnt trigger the relay though). Maybe try subbing one of the yellow relays with another one. Maybe check the relay socket for any fine "hairs" of wire that may have settled there since the installation. Recheck (as Ken mentioned) the screw terminals that connect the main board to the FM-35, as well as the plug itself. Still think that subbing the FM-35 (only takes an allen key) would be the best place to start.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-20-2003 08:49 PM                     Yes, the "Chicka-Chick" sound of the relays activating is unmistakable. The diodes were factory installed, per our request. They have not been touched since. The manual switches are parallel to the relays and wouldn't cause them to trip, even if they malfunctioned. I am afraid you are right. I think the FM-35 is the culprit. My main problem is that I haven't been able to be there to witness the malfuntion as it happens. If I could see it happen I would know whether it was the FM-35 or the TA-10. I could see the lights on the cue detector. As soon as I can witness the actual malfunctin I'll have a lot more to go on. I have reseated the multi-pin connector at the back of the failsafe itself. I haven't checked all the screw connections inside the chassis. Will do that next trip up to the booth. I have worked on many FM-35s. We had a whole crop of those old-style ones that used to drop out when the LEDs got weak. I have changed out many of the film detector modules and the cue detectors. It only takes a screwdriver to change them... two minute job. I'm thinking it's the cue detector module. Yes?  |  IP: Logged Rick Long Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 759 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 1999 posted 02-20-2003 11:18 PM                     Or switch the FM-35 with another machine in the complex and see if the problem travels. The worst scenario here is that the problem may not re-occur for several days (or not at all), leaving you with the nagging doubt that it is just waiting for you to leave town before it mis-behaves again.  |  IP: Logged Matthew Peters Expert Film Handler Posts: 179 From: Glen Waverley, Melbourne, Australia Registered: Nov 2002 posted 02-20-2003 11:47 PM                     I have seen a similar problem at the cinema I work for. The foil sensor was malfunctioning and emitting random pulses to the automation. The problem was noticed when a projectionist was doing a routine check on the cinema and noticed a movie, being projected onto the curtains with the house lights half way up. The problem had been like that for less than 5 minutes yet no one complained. The sensor must have sent at least two random pulses because (1) the lights had been turned up to half way, which is supposed to happen at the start of the credits. (2) The curtains had closed. One more pulse and the zipper, fire door and dowser would have closed, along with the sound reverting to non-sync etc. Thankfully the problem hadn’t got any further when it was noticed. The automation was set to ignore cue’s until the sensor was replaced. You can see the old sensor dangling at the bottom of the frame.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-21-2003 12:37 AM                     Had this problem try swapping the micro controller  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-21-2003 09:15 AM                     Just for knowledge: If you have a FM-35 which has a bad sensor module, either the presnce/motion sensor or the cue sensor, you can remove the offending module and you will essentially bypass its function. I have done this several times when called to a theater for emergency calls. Just pull the module and the projector will run quasi-normally. You won't have failsafe function or cue detection but it'll get the show back on-screen till the parts arrive. After I get some things done today, I plan to go back upstairs and turn the automation on and let it sit idle for a while longer. Let's hope I can catch it in the act. PS: Only one projector here. Plus, I've got the only TA-10 in town within about a 100 mile radius. Can't even go back to my old theater(s) and play "Let's make a deal".  |  IP: Logged Scott Manley Film Handler Posts: 59 From: Austin, TX USA Registered: May 2001 posted 02-21-2003 10:30 AM                     Had a similar problem before.....I had a FM-35 randomly cue the lights up on it own. Changed the unit...and all was fine after that.  |  IP: Logged Don Olson Film Handler Posts: 20 From: Seattle WA Registered: Jul 99 posted 02-21-2003 12:14 PM                        Randy: If you can't swap FM-35's to isolate the problem here is something you can try. Go to http://www.componentengineering.com/extra.html and get the color code for the FM-35 cable.....Disconnect the pair of wires from the cue that is bringing up the lights. You can do this on the upper left hand side of the mainboard. Then, if the "cue" keeps happening it can't be the FM-35 that is at fault. It would probably be one of the 3 chips that decode and output the cues. ID'd as.....U6, U7, and U8 on the mainboard. They are socketed and inexpensive. Call us for replacements. Be sure to insert with the same orientation as the originals. Hope this is helpful Don Olson Component Engineering dolson@componentengineering.com  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-21-2003 02:52 PM                     Excellent! Thanks! I'll disable the Outboard (#1) cue and see what happens. Won't be until next Monday, at least, until I am able to go up and work on it some more. We have an orchestra concert and a couple music recitals going on until then. Don, are the three chips identical? In other words, if I swapped two of them, could I expect to see the problem move? (From Cue #1 to Cue #4, for instance?) Not only would that 100% verify what the problem was, but which chip it was. Thus making the repair even LESS expensive.  |  IP: Logged

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