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Author Topic: Phantom LE and RE Channels (DD 9-Channel) - Would This Work? Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-28-2003 12:39 AM                     Okay...we have Dolby SR which derives its centre channel from Lt and Rt tracks. We also have SRD-EX which derives its Back Surround track from the Ls and Rs tracks. Presumably, the same process? What's to stop us from one day deriving Left-Extra and Right-Extra (screen) channels from Left-Centre and Right-Centre matrices?  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 02-28-2003 12:52 AM                        The reason that they can't get directional audio from jumping channels now, would be the reason of failure for extra channels. I doubt that having extra off phase signals for these channels would work that reliably. The phases would probably be to close together to work. Anyway, you'll never see it, and you know why. D I G I T A L is better. Nobody's going to spend money on developing a new analog system. So to answer your question, lack of interest by manufacturers would prevent it.  |  IP: Logged Christopher Seo Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 530 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-28-2003 01:58 AM                     This actually sounds similar to Dolby's Pro-Logic II. I think they manage to matrix 5.1 channels down into two tracks, such as you would find in the regular stereo track on a DVD. The additional matrixing capability is in fact due to the "perfect" nature of the digital track... i.e., perfect level balance, azimuth, crosstalk, etc. I don't know whether the matrix decoding is done in the digital or analog domain.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-28-2003 07:31 AM                     It could be done but the vectors get a bit hairy It would be easy to derive say just LC by doing a standard level/phase detection between L and C or the discrete digital/mag source. If the two were the same then LC (.7sum of L+c) would get a gain boost and the L and C would get dain reduction. The problem comes as it is possible that C could also be getting a control signal from the R/C matrix that could cause excessive pumping. Years ago I did trie this with 2 cat 150d's and never did get back to it  |  IP: Logged Robert Throop Master Film Handler Posts: 412 From: Vernon, NY USA Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-28-2003 09:15 AM                     In 1957 the Todd AO people came up with a system for bridging left and center for LC and right and center for RC for their Cinestage 35mm system. This uses 4 mag tracks on 35mm film (34mm in the UK). There's a description of it at the Widescreen Museum,http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/ P.S. They also used Perspecta encoding on the surround to get 3 surround channels.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-28-2003 09:31 AM                     I think EX will ultimately fade away quite soon as DTS will be unveiling the new XD digital player at Showest this year. It has 8 channel capability as it comes right now, and will be expanded to 10 channels after a few months. It is also hard drive based. Mark @ CLACO  |  IP: Logged Karen Hultgren Master Film Handler Posts: 492 From: Agoura Hills, CA, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 02-28-2003 11:22 AM                        For anyone going to ShoWest, please stop by for a visit and see the new XD10 player. Karen at DTS khultgren.dtsonline.com  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 02-28-2003 09:03 PM                     The XD10 hard disc based player raises a few obvious questions. The format is starting out as 8-channel discrete and then upgrading to 10-channel. Would that perhaps mean the player will support the 10.2 Surround layout promoted by fellows like Tomlinson Holman. I have to wonder about that one specifically since he has given demonstrations of 10.2 Surround using two piggy-backed DTS-6D machines. Which audio compression codec is being used for the XD10's audio process? Is it an expanded version of the DTS-CAC codec. I remember years ago reading the DTS-CAC codec maxed out at 8 channels. But in a recent issue of Widescreen Review commenting on DTS' 10th anniversary, I could have sworn I saw a blurb in there claiming DTS-CAC could do 16 discrete channels. Of course, this is all assuming the audio on the hard disc is even compressed at all. There is more than enough disc I/O bandwidth available in hard drives to deliver 12-channels of uncompressed LPCM, even in higher bit-word lengths and sample rates. Finally, what is the new format going to be called? Also will there be any big upcoming releases supporting the new format (such as the next "Matrix" movie, "X2" or "The Hulk")? I have a feeling I would have to be attending ShoWest to find out.  |  IP: Logged Karen Hultgren Master Film Handler Posts: 492 From: Agoura Hills, CA, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-03-2003 01:11 PM                        Bobby, Here is some data on the new XD10 player: "The DTS XD10 Media Player is a digital playback system used in cinemas that is designed to deliver 10 channels of superior quality digital audio and video for alternate media, and to provide cinema subtitling, closed captions, and narration. It is a dual system with reference to film sound in that the digital audio data is recorded on DVD/CD-ROM discs that are loaded onto a hard drive in the unit. Proprietary DTS timecode is used to synchronize the sound and picture and is printed onto the release print from the soundtrack negative. DTS timecode assures not only accurate sound and picture synchronization, but is keyed with a unique serial number to assure films are run with the correct digital audio track. To further ensure fail-safe operation, the XD10 performs automatic error detection. If errors are detected, the XD10 automatically pulses the cinema processor to the proper analog sound format. The timecode is printed between the picture and optical sound track The optical sound track is used for backup and is still available for theaters not yet upgrade to DTS digital resulting in a single inventory of prints. When playing DTS formatted film in DTS digital, the XD10 automatically starts; stops, and tracks film breaks and changeovers. The XD10 provides left, center, right, left-center, right-center, left-back surround, left surround, right-back surround, right surround, and subwoofer channels. The XD10 is capable of playing back DTS digital sound in 5.1, 6.0, 8-track, and 10-track. It must be connected to a cinema processor capable of managing the desired channel configuration. The XD10 allows for storage of up to 30 complete film sound tracks loaded on its hard drive. Once the hard drive reaches capacity, obsolete titles are easily deleted allowing new titles to be downloaded. After the title information is downloaded, the projectionist may select what playback is desired. Software updating the XD10 is easily done with a downloadable system disc. Hardware options are available to expand the XD10 functionality: - the addition of video board for the Video Option - the addition a second audio board to expand the number of audio channel outputs to 20 - the addition board for CSP (subtitles/captions) and Narration Options - the addition of an AES/EBU digital output board. DTS encoded material is available in two digital sound formats: Standard (APTX100) and Coherent Acoustics. - Material recorded in standard digital audio at a 44.1K sample rate with APTX100 digital audio data compression (4:1) providing 8 audio channels plus 2 auxiliary channels. - Material recorded with Coherent Acoustics encoding is scalable, and allows for lossless compression if desired, as well as 96/24. Coherent Acoustics provides for 10 audio channels, plus 2 auxiliary channels. The auxiliary channels will not be phase coherent with the main output channels. The audio used in conjunction with the video will be Coherent Acoustics PCM 48/24 and will be compatible to standard DVD recordings The XD10’s internal hard drive is used as the film sound signal source and two DVD drives are used to download title/film digital sound information to the hard drive. When DTS cinema discs are placed in the DVD drives, the XD10 automatically downloads the first reel (in approximately 30 seconds). The balance of the reels are then downloaded. The downloading process only needs to be performed once, from that point on, playback is automatic." I don't have information on the titling of any "new" sound format. Let me know if you have any questions. Karen at DTS khultgren@dtsonline.com  |  IP: Logged Bill Langfield Master Film Handler Posts: 280 From: Prospect, NSW, Australia Registered: Apr 2001 posted 03-03-2003 01:36 PM                        EDIT: FOOLISH REMARKS FOLLOW - NOT DELETED , because I'm over that. Thanks Karen we are going to see you and Brad having a hug in front of the DTS booth, with Ray holding up a 'DOLBLY invented sound' sign. Right? RAY You need to create us new stuff to handle this 10.2 stuff!! Bill.  |  IP: Logged David Graham Rose Expert Film Handler Posts: 187 From: Cambridge, UK Registered: Sep 2002 posted 03-03-2003 03:26 PM                     Back in 1993 when I had full mixing facilities available to me, I tried matrixing LC and RC tracks from L and R on the DD sound track. All I can say is that it did not work. Centre channel became extremely indistinct whenever there was any information supposedly on the two 'new' channels. The only way I could discern the dialog was by taking the output of the analog channel and parallelling that with the centre channel of DD output. Very bad idea. Probably needed some capacitors or something like that. Still it did not work.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 03-03-2003 06:24 PM                     I'm glad to see DTS supporting a four channel layout for the surrounds (left side, left back, right back, right side). I think that is something that can fit in better with the existing split-surround model rather than having one odd back wall surround channel. It is also a good move to make the XD10 unit scaleable. With adding a second sound board, the potential of as many as 20 channels of sound could be very impressive for certain kinds of special venue theaters. I can also see how such a system might pay off in areas like Broadway plays, laser light shows and any other presentation that might make use of a digital sound master with many channels. As to what the format should be called, I could see the tendency to call it something like "DTS-X" or "Super DTS" and so on. But I think the general public is pretty confused by all the acronyms at this point. Probably the best thing would be to stick with the standard DTS brand name but simply add the channel notation to it for certain key shows. A regular DTS show could continue to use the standard DTS brand name. Maybe the new shows could just use simple notation like DTS-8 and DTS-10. Maybe for some fancy display ad where the DTS logo might be reproduced large, there may be room to use that 24/96 moniker if applicable. But at really small print sizes, dot gain will kill its readability.  |  IP: Logged

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