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Author Topic: Sound formats Alex Grasic Film Handler Posts: 90 From: Toronto, ON, Canada Registered: Jul 2002 posted 03-25-2003 11:52 PM                     I am looking for every available sound format in use today for 35mm film. Can anyone help with finding a list? or starting one here? Thanks  |  IP: Logged Aaron Sisemore Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day! Posts: 3061 From: Rockwall TX USA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 03-26-2003 12:34 AM                     As far as formats still currently in use they are: Academy Mono Optical Dolby A Stereo with surround (Also includes the SVA clones such as Ultra*Stereo and DTS Stereo) Dolby Spectral Recording (SR) and its 'clones' Dolby Digital Dolby Digital EX DTS Digital DTS-ES Sony Dynamic Digital Sound (SDDS) 6-channel and 8-channel Double System Magnetic and Digital -Aaron  |  IP: Logged Alex Grasic Film Handler Posts: 90 From: Toronto, ON, Canada Registered: Jul 2002 posted 03-26-2003 12:44 AM                     Would Dolby EX qualify as a sound format in itself?  |  IP: Logged Aaron Sisemore Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day! Posts: 3061 From: Rockwall TX USA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 03-26-2003 12:46 AM                     I forgot to add EX. OOPS! -Aaron  |  IP: Logged Alex Grasic Film Handler Posts: 90 From: Toronto, ON, Canada Registered: Jul 2002 posted 03-26-2003 12:48 AM                     Also, I'm not too familiar with SDDS but there is 8 channel and 16 channel? Would these two perhaps present two different formats on some level?  |  IP: Logged Aaron Sisemore Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day! Posts: 3061 From: Rockwall TX USA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 03-26-2003 12:49 AM                     Just 6 and 8 channels (7 and 9 if you count EX) for SDDS. Since they are both derived from the same track (The SDDS-8 mix is almost always 'backwards-compatible' to 6-channel setups) I wouldn't count them as two. -Aaron  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 03-26-2003 02:54 AM                        quote: As far as formats still currently in use they are: Academy Mono Optical Which can be subdivided into Single-track unilateral variable area (VA) Single track unilateral VA with shuttered noise reduction Dual-track unilateral VA (used mainly in India) Single track bilateral VA Dual bilateral VA (looks similar to a stereo track at first glance) Multiple-track bilateral VA RCA duplex (looks like a negative image of a single-track bilateral VA) Variable density ...and there are probably a few I've forgotten. Most of these are no longer in use apart from on archival elements, and some are not 'Academy mono' as many early formats didn't equalise according to the Academy curve.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 03-26-2003 07:37 AM                     Alex wrote: quote: I am looking for every available sound format in use today for 35mm film. Can anyone help with finding a list? or starting one here? What do you mean by 'in use today'? Tracks being recorded today for new films? Tracks being printed on new prints being made today of old films? Tracks being played in cinemas today from old prints? Would you include film being run in 'special venue' type setups? What abput 7 track mag with Cinerama, that is still being run today, and I understand that test footage has recently been shot with the Kinopanorama camera, if a new film is made in that format, I guess it would still use mag fullcoat, as that is what the Cinerama theatres are set up to show, more likely seven channels, rather than the Kinorama nine. If you mean new production, what about this new DTS system, which plays from a hard disk, is that available yet, and does it count as a different format? Come to that, what do you mean by a 'format', the number and disposition of channels, or the way they are recorded on the print, or both? Leo, I don't think for this purpose I would count the different types of optical track as being different formats, because they are all the same in terms of channels (one centre front) and use the same processing between sound head and speaker. Anything which produces a different result, e.g. Perspecta, or needs different equipment, e.g. push-pull, or anything which doesn't use the Academy filter, I would class as a different format. Of course, from a lab, or archive point of view these different optical tracks are all different formats. Is theatrical Dolby Digital always 5.1 channels, or can it have anything from 1 to 5.1, as with Laserdisc and DVD. Speaking of DVD, try working out how many different sound formats it is possible for a DVD to carry, including number of channels, use or otherwise of a pro-logic matrix, sampling frequency, number of bits, encoding (PCM, DD, DTS and Mpeg) and centre surround (DD EX and DTS ES matrix or discrete. It starts to make sound on 35mm look simple. I gave up counting when I got somewhere close to a hundred. How many of these have ever actually been used is another matter. [ 03-26-2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Furley ]  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 03-26-2003 10:35 AM                        quote: The SDDS-8 mix is almost always 'backwards-compatible' to 6-channel setups It is always compatible since the downmix is done by the processor during playback. I wouldn`t classify EX or ES or SDDS 6/8 as different formats from their "parent" format but rather as variations, like Dolby Stereo with or without surround. The dts XD10 is not a new format but rather new playback hardware, although the addition of channels is definitely a big upgrade. It unites theatrical and home dts playback in one unit. One could look at them as two different formats from the same manufacturer.  |  IP: Logged Christopher Seo Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 530 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-26-2003 10:40 AM                     Leo, How does dual track unilateral VA differ from RCA duplex? The duplex track contains what looks like two unilateral tracks facing inward toward each other, correct?  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 03-26-2003 10:43 AM                        Right. The difference was in the light source used in the sound camera. If I'm remembering correctly, the light in RCA sound cameras was more heavily balanced toward the ultraviolet end of the spectrum, because (according to RCA) the resulting track was better suited to the light source in a tungsten exciter bulb.  |  IP: Logged Alex Grasic Film Handler Posts: 90 From: Toronto, ON, Canada Registered: Jul 2002 posted 03-26-2003 11:00 AM                     Wow, a whole lot of information here. I guess I wasn't specific enough with my question. What I am looking for is the formats that are typically associated with any movie, new or old, so just your sdds8, dts (any type, nothing too specific), dolby digital, dobly sr, dolby A. Just the general formats...if that is anymore specific than my last request.  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 03-26-2003 11:45 AM                        No, that is still very vague. If you are asking about new mainstream releases in the US and Europe, one could say that they are typically in the so-called quad format: SDDS, dts, SR-D, all on one print. Note that SR-D always stands for Dolby SR + Digital, although it is often mistaken as meaning just Dolby D (which is accompanied by the SR track in all cases anyway). But if you say "old or new", that is not very specific at all... Analogue optical sound was introduced in 1927 (the first demonstration was in Berlin BTW, in 1922 or 23). Since then, you could say every movie had some kind of analogue optical soundtrack, and since the 1950s, maybe an analogue magnetic soundtrack instead. There were also movies which had both, but that would be too complicated again to explain here. You can have 4-channel magnetic with 35mm, and 6-channel with 70mm. Since the mid 1970s, more and more movies had the 4-channel analogue optical Dolby Stereo format. The breakthrough came with Star Wars in 1977, since then most big productions had it. In 1987, Dolby introduced SR, which is an improved noise reduction, not a new format as such. Dolby Digital came in 1992, dts in 93, SDDS in 94.  |  IP: Logged Hugh McCullough Expert Film Handler Posts: 147 From: Old Coulsdon, Surrey, UK Registered: Jan 2003 posted 03-26-2003 11:52 AM                        What about Dolby Quintaphonic four track magnetic sound  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 03-26-2003 12:41 PM                     Michael said, "Note that SR-D always stands for Dolby SR + Digital, although it is often mistaken as meaning just Dolby D (which is accompanied by the SR track in all cases anyway)." I do not believe that is correct. When Dolby Digital was first introduced, it was introduced under the name "Dolby SR-D" (i.e. Dolby Spectral Recording -- Digital). The name "SR-D" simply means "Dolby Digital". Labelling of leaders by labs continues to say "SRD" instead of "DD". It is for this reason that a quad-format print is labelled on the leader "SR/SRD/SDDS/DTS"; if "SRD" necessarily meant "SR and Dolby Digital," then it would not be so-labelled. But in any event, yes, when Dolby Digital is present, the analog track is supposed to always be Dolby SR, rather than Dolby A or mono. But this is a marketting/administrative requirement, not a technical one. A print with Dolby Digital could carry a Dolby A -format analog track, though it would be confusing and Is Not Done. --jhawk  |  IP: Logged

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