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This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5
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Author
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Topic: Thx certification
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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster
Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-02-2003 03:02 PM
Actual THX liscensing and certification is for the most part a waste of money. A competant sound engineer can design you a ststem based on the THX principals and get you the same results. You can build a theatre, install its sound system, align it with the R-2 analyzer, and no one would know the difference. Stop and think that they charge 10,000.00 U.S. for the first screen, and then 9,000.00 U.S. for each additional screen just to let you use the name. ITS NOT WORTH IT!
As for the cross overs.... JBL I believe has discontinued all of their cinema cross overs. The USL VX series cross over has been giving me really good results. Its all digital, and does provide the proper time alignment needed. There are other companies that also make digital crossovers as well, but so far the USL has been the best performer for me. The settings for the different stage , subwoofer, and surrounds are all conained in the USL VX software, or you can easily create your own deign as well. These specs are always listed in the speaker manufacturers literature and data. Also, remember that your analog end of the system should be built using the highest quality equipment made.
BTW: You can get alot better processor by going with the Panastereo and adding an outboard digital processor to it. It does in fact have two digital inputs...one set up for DTS and the other for Dolby Digital. There is no processor on the market that approaches the aound, or build quality of the Panastereo at the present.
Mark
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-02-2003 10:38 PM
As to JBL crossovers...JBL does have the DSC-260 which is a DSP based crossover. THX used this crossover (With their badge on it) while the THX D-1138 crossover was still being made ready.
As to crossovers in general...stay away from DSP unless it gets you something. A good quality analog crossover is more than adequate for any 2-way system that is worth owning. I also strongly recommend staying away from people that "dabble" in certain technologies like DSP. It is more tricky than they realize.
DSP crossovers can bring something to the table though. Many will allow some parametric tuning to come along with the crossover functions. A few well placed and tuned parametric filters can all but eliminate the need for 1/3-octave equalization and all of its shortcomings.
If you are using a 3-way system...particularly if you are using one that cost under $2,000 for each speaker...then odds are you are better off with a DSP crossover to make up for the speaker's "issues."
If you want to look into a DSP crossover...I'd look at the RANE RPM-26Z...very power stuff there and with a great interface that will maximize S/N in both digital and analog domains. RANE RPM26Z
As to room vs baffle wall...I 100% disagree with Mark on this one...get the room right first...this includes all walls, ceiling (often forgotten about) and even the floor.
If you get at least 2" of fiberglass on the walls behind the screen and on the back wall of the auditorium you will be doing yourself a big favor but don't stop there. On the side walls you want at least 1" of fiberglass from ceiling to floor...don't stop about 5' up...people's ears are below that in their seats...you have to get the sound deadening down below ear level. If the room is small and too dead you can reduce the coverage from 100% down to as low as 75% but go all of the way down to the screen plane (very important).
Above the ceiling you want a MINIMUM of 6" of insulation (fiberglass) to knock down the resonance with the cavity above the tiles up to the roof top. This not only helps the sound greatly in the upper-bass and improves dialogue but helps on the heating/cooling costs. This one is often forgotten about since "after all we used acoustic tiles"...however the RT-60 test will quantify just how well that area is covered.
The area just in front of the screen is also a hot spot...if you have a really live area due to tile floor...carpet it! That is where the sound is eminating from keep it dead there.
Once you have all of that...then I push for the baffle wall...there is no substitute for it with a direct radiator speaker (non-horn load bass). The response of the bass will go up leaps and bounds...not just frequency response but the whole timbre of it will sweeten and sound much better. If you have horn-loaded bass cabinets, the value of the baffle wall is reduced...unless you have something like an Altec A-5 or A-7...those are only horn-loads down to 125Hz...below that they are bass-reflex and need a baffle wall to get a rather flat response down to 40Hz. The Altec A-4, with its bass-wings already has baffletes by design...cover them with fiberglass and they will do even better.
Think you are done? Only if you have a single...if you have any common walls...demand STC-75 for any common walls if you have digital sound...if not, and I don't care what anyone says, you WILL hear the neighboring theatre and that is another THX item...sound transfer.
While you are at it...make sure the booth wall adequately stops the sound too...STC-65 with double-glass ports (properly spaced, angled and with anti-reflective coatings) is the goal. As loud as the booth can be...the rectifier is about the only bass generating device and it isn't very loud comparatively. The most annoying thing is the sound of the projector coming through the port areas...double glass ports go a long way to nixing that sound. Also, keeping the port holes as small as practical is another thing...if you have a 36" x 36" port, learn how to know where the projection beam will be rather than having such a large, leaky target.
THX covers much of the above. One aspect I strongly disagree with them on is the angle of the ports....they have the double ports in a "A" formation so the glass on the auditorium side angles any reflected sound up...I haven't had an issue with a reasonably sized port glass causing undo reflections...I have had issues with booth side port glass reflecting the projected beam up and sometimes across a booth and out another theatre's ports!. Also, who wants the reflected beam up in their eyes? I'll stick with the "V" formation.
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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster
Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-02-2003 11:33 PM
quote:
"If you get at least 2" of fiberglass on the walls behind the screen and on the back wall of the auditorium you will be doing yourself a big favor but don't stop there. On the side walls you want at least 1" of fiberglass from ceiling to floor...don't stop about 5' up...people's ears are below that in their seats...you have to get the sound deadening down below ear level. If the room is small and too dead you can reduce the coverage from 100% down to as low as 75% but go all of the way down to the screen plane (very important)."
_________________________________________________________________
This is what I would call a minimal decent room treatment..... I've been involved with lots of non THX rooms, and some THX rooms that required far more than this to meet the decay specs that were specified by THX and calculated out by the acoustical consultant. 6" of treatment ABOVE acoustical ceiling tiles is a typical minimal requirement for alot of rooms. I've actually seen this amount added to at one location to bring the RT-60 into spec!! 4" on rear auditorium walls is typical to allow proper LF absorbtion as is at least 2" on all rmaining walls. The cost of 1" vs. 2" is minimal and its really the labor to install what ever treatment you're doing thats the main expense involved. But here you HAVE to follow the specs your hopefully cinema experienced acoustical consultant has calculated for a given room.
As to the X-over thing.... I was very skeptical using my first DSP based x-overs, however I've actually grown very positive towards digital DSP type x-overs for use in any decent two way or three way system. The advantages of certain DSP/Digital systems far outweigh the iffy performance that even high end analog x-overs allow for. Its typical for many analog x-overs to be off by as much as 10 to 15% from where you THINK you are setting it, or from where THEY say they have preset it. Analog x-overs also introduce uneven amounts of phase shift at different operating frequencies. What DSP does provide is extreme accuracy of setting, no phase shift at all, very accurate presets for commonly utilized speaker systems, or extremely accurate preset or variable time alignment, parametric eq, screen loss and other finer adjustments that analog x-overs only dream of attempting. Most of the adjustments DSP provides would never be utilized though they are there if needed in some extreme condition. Indeed using the parametric adjustments can allow for a very minimal to no eq setting in the processor if the rest of the system was engineered correctly. Also, the sound quality of all of the DSP x-overs.....JBL, USL VX I've used is so superb as to seem to not even be in the system. As to cost over using analog x-overs..... not even noticable over the cost of building an 8 to 16 screen complex....
Mark
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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 07-07-2003 02:46 PM
It appears that everyone here agrees that THX certification is not necessary to have a great sounding theater.
But how are the paying audiences supposed to differentiate between that well-done theater and the marginally acceptable one just down the road?
The THX moniker gives the audience something to look for when they are choosing which theater to attend to see a film. So, part of that certification fee is the marketing that goes into the THX name.
Obviously, issues relating to bad theaters still getting certification is a problem, and they should be tossed. But I would allow that no such program is without similar issues. I've stayed in a couple AAA rated 3-diamond hotels that should be closed by any authorities in charge of such things...
What is the incentive for a newly opening theater to put money into baffle walls and a good sound system if they can't differentiate themselves to the paying audience? If they screw it up really badly, and the sound is bad to even the most casual observer, they will suffer as a result. But aside from that, it's difficult for people to understand and appreciate minor differences (to the casual observer).
Unless the paying audience can somehow pick out the better presentations, all that money and effort that was put into going the extra mile will have been wasted (in effect). Those going that extra mile need a way to tell the audience that they have done so, and to pay attention to the difference between their theater and the mediocre one down the road. The THX label helps them do that.
I'd be willing to support any theater's efforts to do so by building that differentiation into our schedules on The BigScreen Cinema Guide. We currently have indicators for THX, digital sound (generic and each format), and stadium seating.
For over eight years, our goal has been to help people find the movies they want to see with the best possible presentation, and I would be more than happy to help a theater market and differentiate their shows over another that didn't care about sound or picture for the shows they present.
If paying for the THX certification is out of the question, how else do you suggest the audience differentiate between shows when they're trying to decide which theater to visit?
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Per Hauberg
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 883
From: Malling, Denmark
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-07-2003 07:04 PM
Al Capone, Don Vito Corleone, Varying Rocker-groups through history have always been offering "protection" against fee.
When fee is payed, Your shop will not be burned down (by us), when You come in tomorrow.
The Millenium version of this kind of business is to brainwash moviegoing (young) people, that only cínemas showing a certain logo on their facade are worth visiting. No sign, don't go in there.
Even spending 10, maybe 20 % of the "protection fee" on hype brainwash marketing, "protector" will earn good money, as long as cinema owners are kept afraid to be hung out for having no sign.
p.
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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"
Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 07-08-2003 12:21 AM
quote:
If paying for the THX certification is out of the question, how else do you suggest the audience differentiate between shows when they're trying to decide which theater to visit?
Most people don`t notice the difference in presentation quality from one theater to the next consciously, but I think they do very much subconsciously.
So a good presentation quality IS important. Most people do notice problems distracting from the immersing movie watching experience, like sound droputs, unevenly lit images, scratches etc.
In addition to that, good smooth service, friendly people, clean locations.
All the really obvious stuff.
OK, a theater chain needs some brand name to be recognized, and any theater has to gain attention somehow, but I think it is word-of-mouth rather than a THX or any other logo on the marquee which brings people to certain cinemas. Of course, that is not what marketing people would tell you. They want to sell you a logo or marketing strategy for a lot of money.
But in reality, it is maintaining good service and presentation which brings people to and keeps them at your location - nothing else.
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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 07-08-2003 09:46 AM
There are two flaws in the "do a good job, and the people will come without marketing" approach:
1. At least in this area, quality can vary greatly from screen to screen within the same location, much less from location to location within the same chain. There is no way to know which screen a movie is playing in unless you contact someone at the theater directly and ask (and hopefully you get someone that actually knows what you're asking for).
2. Being from both a technical (Engineering) and a Marketing background, I can appreciate both perspectives, and how each needs the other. Marketing without technical expertise is hollow. People will see that the emperor has no clothes. Technical expertise without marketing reduces your return on investment (ROI). You can invest all you want into making your screens look and sound great, but you also need to tell people what to notice so they can appreciate the improvements you've made.
Maybe THX has outlived its usefulness, I don't know. What I do know is that without some form of differentiation, audiences will make do with mediocrity and quality will slip little by little. The pendulum will swing and once again, we'll be back in the early 80's again and need something like THX to whip them back into shape.
With all of the ways for people to spend their time and money these days, marketing should be at the forefront of any theater's concerns. Home theaters have gone from being a niche hobby to a mainstream item in many homes, ranging from a simple surround system in a living room to a media room with a projector, etc.
If the THX materials are to be believed, 33% will choose a THX cinema over a non-THX cinema. Be pessimistic and cut that in half. Would grabbing 16% more business than your competitor be worth $10,000 a year ($192/week)? As with all marketing costs, it comes down to cost per sale, and if that cost is outweighed by the extra revenue.
I don't work for THX, never have. I am an advocate for the movie-going public, and I see no other reliable way for audiences to differentiate quality between two presentations of the same movie (even within the same location) except for the THX designation. At the very least, that moniker assures a basic level of quality and a certain amount of expectation. If a certified theater isn't up to snuff, both the theater and THX should have their feet held to the fire and account for their actions.
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Of course, you can. As mentioned above, you just cannot use the THX® brand name in conjunction with said auditoria.
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