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Author Topic: Note from distributor to run at another speed Rob van Ede Film Handler Posts: 25 From: Zeist, The Netherlands Registered: Sep 2002 posted 11-21-2003 02:47 AM                        We got a note from the distributor of the film Pipo (that's not a typo but the name of a dutch movie that will arrive next week) that this film should be run at 25 FPS instead of the 24 FPS that we normally use over here. The note stated that when run at 24 FPS, the film would not run smoothly through the projector. Personally, i cannot think of any reason for problems when running a film at another speed other than the film being slightly longer at 24 FPS (our Ennemann 15s have no speed adjustment control that i know of). Am i missing something or is this warning pure nonsense?  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 11-21-2003 03:41 AM                        sounds like pure nonsense to me. i'm guessing this will only have an analog soundtrack. imdb lists "Pipo en de p-parelridder (2003)" but has few details on it. probably this was intended to be seen mostly on tv and somebody had a cow over frame rates when they shouldn't have. carl  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-21-2003 03:57 AM                        Ron, I agree with Carl. That's just a crock. It is just a distrib who never handles film making a big deal about 24 vs. 25, which even if you had perfect pitch, you couldn't tell the difference in the sound. As for not running correctly in the projector....well, that just tells you how little distribution knows about what goes on in the booth. Seems this particular bunch are technical dunces. You should put a note back in the cans -- "On the contrary, this print runs fine at either speed." Frank  |  IP: Logged Howard Johnson Film Handler Posts: 87 From: Felpham , West Sussex, UK Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-21-2003 04:04 AM                     It's just rubbish. Many projectors in UK are from preview theatres and run at 25 fps , I know of a triple where one of the projectors runs faster than the others although they are identical machines. I doubt if many projectors run at exactly 24fps. This film was probably shot at 25fps and somebody at the distributor has got mixed up.  |  IP: Logged Ian Price Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1714 From: Denver, CO Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-21-2003 11:46 AM                     If it was shot on video in PAL then its native speed is 25 fpm. I had a guy who had shot a short called The Piano at the Telluride Film Festival who insisted that I run his film at 25 fpm. I thought about it for a minute, said "sure, no problem." And ran the film. He was happy.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-21-2003 12:14 PM                     On the contrary...if you have perfect pitch...you'd easily notice the difference between 24 and 25 fps. In fact, we recently modified an ELMO LX-1100 for variable speed. We used a Reliance motor controller and did the math for a 60Hz frequency equalling 24 fps. Upon playing several films, my boss claimed...it is running too fast that the voices did not sound natural. He adjusted the speed until he thought the voices sounded correct. So here you have a motor controller displaying that it is putting out 60Hz but someone claiming that it is too fast. Who do you believe? I took out a strobe and confirmed that the machine was indeed running too fast! Furthermore, when he set the speed by ear...he was DEAD ON...to within fractions of a percent! So what gives?...wanting to get to the bottom of it...I put a digital OScope on the output of the converter and sure enough...it was putting a higher frequency that what it was displaying! Measuring the frequency when my boss set the speed by ear...came to exactly 60Hz. So back to the topic...25fps is NOT the same as 24fps...can you get away with it? Sure but even without perfect pitch you can see and hear the change in speed. You would be running 4% too slow at 24fps...4% is quite perceivable to even the lay person. Many European machines with frequency converter drives (e.g. Kinoton D or E series projectors) have a 24/25 fps switch so selecting the proper speed is easy. The note in the can would greatly assist those theatres in choosing the proper speed. If, on the other hand, you have an async motor or no means to affect a speed change...you are probably just going to live the incorrect speed for the one film. If it became a habit, then you might consider investing in the proper equipment...kinda like 1.66 or 1.37 lenses...for a one-shot...you'll make due with the materials you have...if you run them all the time...get the proper lenses. As to projectors running at speed...Most projectors made today run just about perfectly at speed since most now use Sync. motors and the line frequency is pretty tightly regulated. Those with async motors are certainly more wild since loading affects the speed greatly. Even those however will not be off by a full frame per second..in fact they are often within a percent of proper speed. There are exceptions to the rule, however. Steve  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 11-21-2003 12:24 PM                     Yup, anyone who knows what they are listening for, especially a musician will detect that 1fps error. Ages ago we were screening a film, follow the moonstone I think it was called, anyroad it had music by Ally Bain, the fiddler in it, he was at the premier during the Edinburgh Film Festival, and didn't complain, just commented about the pitch. On some investigation with a tachometer the old Westar was running way down at 22 fps. On the Westrex machine that is usually due to the 'V' pulleys wearing, one timing belt conversion kit later and proper speed was restored. Steve, with invertor controlled machines I don't trust the indicated output, I measure with a tachometer and adjust until the sprockets are turning at x fps. The indicated frequency is often well off from the calculated.  |  IP: Logged Rob van Ede Film Handler Posts: 25 From: Zeist, The Netherlands Registered: Sep 2002 posted 11-21-2003 05:03 PM                        Thanks for your thoughts, it shouldn't be a problem then. I'll listen very carefully when the film arrives next week. Rob  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-21-2003 07:10 PM                     Pete, I think it depends on the inverter as to how accurate they are...if they are crystal controlled...then they should be dead on...the Reliance controller is the first I've stumbled upon that said one thing and did another...not it wasn't wildly off...the projector was still within 1 fps of accurate but I think we had to have something like .7Hz compensation factor. One thing most inverters allow is to program in an RPM speed based on frequency...I normally put this mulitplier in such that 60Hz equalls 2400 RPM...then put a "dot" on the display so it reads 24.00. On this controller...life was not that easy...after the correction factor...I had to loose the last significant digit so it read 24.0...still good to within a 1/10 of a frame per second. Checking with a strobe we had less than a percent error. Steve  |  IP: Logged Andy Muirhead Master Film Handler Posts: 323 From: Galashiels, Scotland Registered: Dec 2000 posted 11-21-2003 07:17 PM                     Not sure if I remember correctly, but I think the difference in audio between 24fps and 25fps translates to a semitone. Which would change the key of a piece from major to minor, and vice versa. Ally Bain Rocks!  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 11-21-2003 07:58 PM                        quote: Which would change the key of a piece from major to minor if selected notes were changed, but not if they all are.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-21-2003 10:21 PM                     Carl films projected at the wrong speed are "film done wrong" I have many times had to provide speed control to accomodate 25FPS on some films  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 11-22-2003 02:28 AM                        agreed. my assumption was that 25fps was the "wrong" speed, though, since 24fps is a pretty universal standard for sound film and i can't think of any reason for it to be 25 (except pal). but if it was shot at 25fps, then there you are. projecting it at 24fps would hardly be as gross an error as using the wrong ratio, though. after all, silent films were and are shown at a much greater range of speeds. carl  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 11-22-2003 03:18 AM                        25 vs 24 fps result in a pitch difference of about a quarter tone. As already stated, this is just a shift in tuning, not a change of the key or the major/minor mode. The truth is, even most trained musicians would not really mind that too much. There is no absolute defined pitch for any note. A` is defined as a frequency of 440Hz, but in reality a lot of orchestras tune to 444Hz, while some tune as low as 435Hz.  |  IP: Logged John Anastasio Master Film Handler Posts: 325 From: Trenton, NJ, USA Registered: Sep 2000 posted 11-22-2003 07:23 AM                        Michael's right. Changing pitch doesn't change mode. You can easily hear the difference in pitch when a 25fps film is projected at 24fps, but you'd probably only notice it if you had something to reference it to. If you know what someone is supposed to sound like, or if you have perfect pitch, the change in frequency can make you uneasy...and tuning a machine by ear isn't all that difficult. I can easily detect a pitch difference of a 1/8 of a tone. In the western world, our music uses a half tone as its smallest pitch change, but some Indian modes, for instance, use quarter tone pitch changes. That's equivalent to playing in the cracks on a piano keyboard. I was the director of a symphony orchestra for a couple of years (I have a degree in music, in addition to other things) and we tuned to A440. Our colleagues up in Boston, however, were famous for tunning to A444, not a large difference, but nevertheless enough of a change to give the orchestra a very bright sound. All that aside, though....I don't think I'd get all upset over the difference in sound if I had produced the film. It's all very subjective.  |  IP: Logged

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