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Author Topic: Query from Home Theater Forum re: proj speed / shutter timing
Robert Harris
Film Handler

Posts: 95
From: Bedford Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2003


 - posted 04-10-2004 03:53 PM      Profile for Robert Harris   Email Robert Harris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hopefully this group can answer the following question posted to Home Theater Forum in regard to Phantom of the opera and all silent films in general:

"If the 1930 "International" version was shown at correct speeds, the 1925 footage would be shown at about 22fps and the 1929 sound retake footage at 24fps. Of course, audiences saw the 1925 version at whatever speed projectionists chose and 1929 audiences saw the film at a constant 24fps.


This raises a question that interests me. Perhaps someone out there can modernize my knowledge. Just how adaptable are modern cinema projectors regarding projection speed?

In my teens I frequented projection booths. In those days (the 60s) even projectors that went back to the silent era were strictly one-speed devices. In college I was the main projectionist for our public film series of art and historic films. It wasn't until several years after I graduated that they got 35mm, but the evening showings were in the hospital auditorium. It had a 15x20-ft screen with the industry-standard Altec Lansing speaker array behind. Both motorized curtains and dimmers on the stage lights and main house lights. 16mm aside, you could put on a professional show.

In the early years we had Bell and Howell auditorium projectors with arc lamps supplied by a separate generator. These machines were minimum adaptations of the B&H 300 series "classroom" projectors so you could run films at any speed you liked as long as you liked 16- or 24 fps.

Later we replaced these with a single French-made projector. It was a big machine that loaded from the port side instead of starboard and had a modern Xenon lamphouse. I had to bring the films to the booth (after cleaning them and preparing them for changeovers for the matinee performance at another location) and build them onto a single reel (5,000 feet if I remember right). Like those other professional projectors at real theaters, it ran at only sound speed. Period.

Our engineers had a special pulley machined for showing silents at 20 fps. It wasn't too difficult to switch from one to the other. Other speeds were discussed, but 20 fps was the most practical compromise. Their research into the literature together with some experimentation showed that to go lower than 20 fps, you would also have to change the shutter, which just wasn't practical.

To explain: A shutter serves two purposes in a projector. First, it eliminates travel ghost by blocking out the light when the film moves from one frame to the next. "Travel ghost" is a blur of white above or below bright objects in high contrast scenes. You see it occasionally in cinemas when the shutter is mistimed. There are even situations where you can see this effect in the natural world. (As a kid, I had a projector that didn't have a shutter, so there was a smear on all the intertitles of commercial home movies.)

The second purpose of a shutter is to reduce flicker. At the dawn of silents, many projectors had single-blade shutters which blocked the light only at the transition between frames. When a light or bright object turns off and on at or near sixteen times per second (16 Hz, the persistence-of-vision frequency), our eyes intepret that as flicker and, thus, the movies were called "flickers." If you turn the light on and off fast enough however, our eyes miss it altogether. We think the light is steady.

Professional sound projectors have two-bladed shutters so the light blinks at 48 Hz. Home projectors had three-blade shutters so a sound film blinked at 72 Hz and silents blinked at 48- or 54 Hz. 48 Hz isn't ideal. You can still see some flicker if you look for it, but 72 Hz makes the image a little dimmer, and light is at a premium when you're shooting to a cinema screen.

On the surface it would seem that lowering the projection speed and therefore the rate at which the shutter breaks the light beam wouldn't matter that much, but it does. Since our eyes are operating at a different rate (~16 Hz) there's an interaction between their behavior and what's happening on the screen. Some of the "frames" our eyes take in will see two interruptions of the shutter and some will see three, so some "frames" will appear darker than others. A pattern develops which gets interpreted as flicker.

In short, to show silent films at a wide choice of frame rates a projector needs to have both a means of altering the pulldown frequency and the shutter frequency. I would bet that the standard models have neither, but that the pulldown frequency could be altered to some degree by a knowledgeable service company. Do some cinemas have special equipment to handle silents or have modern technologies made it easier to adapt projectors for silent use?

Of course, this whole discussion begs the question of what is the "correct" speed. If I remember right, the Society of Motion Picture Engineers never quite got to the point of issuing a recommended standard (which would have then become an ASA [later ANSI] standard meant to be applied industry-wide). But there was a proposed standard on the table when sound came in and made the question moot. It called for a camera rate of 16 fps and a faster projection rate, I think 20, but I may be wrong. Most of those SMPE guys were cameramen and the proposal reflected their feeling that silents look more natural when projected a little fast. Or, maybe, just the reality that theater managers wanted to turn the house over fast."

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-10-2004 04:09 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Speed control is fairly easy nowdays thanks to the use of frequency drive invertor motor controllers
Bodine Reliance/AllenBradley and many others make them they work very well some even have feedback to do positional lock between two machines

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Robert Harris
Film Handler

Posts: 95
From: Bedford Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2003


 - posted 04-10-2004 05:07 PM      Profile for Robert Harris   Email Robert Harris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What is the relationship between speed and shutter set-up, or are the two unrelated?

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 04-10-2004 05:16 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
Despite the fact that frequency drives can easily add variable speed, you're simply not going to find this in a typical multiplex. At best, you'll find a machine that can do 24/25 fps.

You're going to have to go to a house that regularly screens specialty product in order to find a booth equipped to properly present these non-typical formats.

For additional information on variable speeds and their effects on picture and sound quality, do a forum search for "25 fps".

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-10-2004 06:36 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Almost all European machines use invertors to control start up out of the box and most of those will support frequency control drive

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Robert Harris
Film Handler

Posts: 95
From: Bedford Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2003


 - posted 04-10-2004 08:47 PM      Profile for Robert Harris   Email Robert Harris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon...

I'm quite confident that you would know this.

As you change speed(for example from 24 down to 20), does one need to adjust the shutter, or does it remain at the same degree for all speeds?

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God

Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 04-10-2004 09:17 PM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Author's Homepage   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Since the shutter is directly tied to the rest of the gear train, any variation in speed will vary the shutter speed accordingly -- keeping the shutter in time with your pull down rate. No extra adjustment necessary.

The further below 24fps you go the more you'll be wanting to use a three blade shutter.

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John Anastasio
Master Film Handler

Posts: 325
From: Trenton, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 04-10-2004 09:31 PM      Profile for John Anastasio   Author's Homepage   Email John Anastasio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some 16mm machines such as the Graflex had a shutter controlled by a spring-loaded centrifugal device that automatically changed the two-bladed shutter to a three-bladed one when you slowed the machine to 16fps. I don't think that a 44hz flicker rate would be objectionable if you were projecting at 22fps. In fact, I doubt that you'd notice much of a difference at all. I'll bet that there's a SMPE paper on it way back in the archives.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-10-2004 09:31 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The shutter will maintain sync but if the machine has a fire shutter it will probably driop if it has a mechanical govenor on it below 20fps

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-10-2004 10:54 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bob,

The shutter always has the same degree opening unless your projectors are fitted with a 2/3 blade shutter, which to my knowledge was only available on a few 16mm machines. What will change is the flicker duration since the shutter is running slower. I've run some silent stuff in the past and have found that below 22fps you need to install a three bladed shutter on the projector. At 20 to 21 fps with a two blade shutter the flicker would drive you insane in a short time. Below 20 with a two blade its actually difficult to look at the picture for very long, you'll get a bad headache from looking at it, especially if there are any bright scenes and assuming SMPTE screen brightness levels are kept constant.

You ought to try to watch a picture while doing front screen work at 18fl with a single blade shutter..... [eyes] [Eek!] [uhoh] [evil]

Mark

Its quite easy to adapt a variable speed drive motor to almost any projector!!

Mark

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 04-11-2004 09:19 AM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think it's worth combining the comments from Mark, Gordon, and Adam, because I'm not sure they are clear as they stand: There is essentially no deployed base of adjustable-speed 35mm projectors, but it is straightforward to modify most projectors to run at variable-speed by adding an invertor, aka variable-speed motor-drive controller, which any competant dealer should be able to handle.

I wonder if I remember rightly that Kinoton will sell you an adjustable-speed projector out-of-the-box?

--jhawk

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 04-11-2004 10:17 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What bizzar, old and forgotten formats...why that seems to be my specialty!
If you are really planning on showing silent films...then there really is but one choice in my book now...an "E" projector from Kinoton.
Their shutter spins at a constant rate (even whilst the projector is stopped).
As you adjust the speed of the projector (available with presets and with variable speed w/frame rate read out)...the flicker remains constant. The "E" projector can simulate a 2-wing or 3-wing shutter. When this effect occurs is also something that can be specified at the time of order. The standard machine will act as a 2-wing shutter from 20fps on up and a 3-wind shutter below 20fps.
Seeing one of these machines running silent film will make your jaw drop. It looks that good.
For those with Simplex or Century projectors...as others have mentioned, you can install 3-phase motors with controllers to vary the speed but many will recommend changing to a 3-wing shutter for the slower speeds if it is more than a one-shot interspursed between regular speed films. Also, watch out on your fire shutters as the speed drops ...they will also be closing down...Simplex had a different govenor spring for machines that were to run silent (available from Wolk).
Steve

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 04-11-2004 10:38 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah, but are you really recreating the silent film experience with high speed shuttering on low fps film?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-11-2004 11:22 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Personally, I would still prefer a simple three bladed shutter on the machine... its easy to change out and its what would have been on the machine that originally ran the film eons ago. Of course you also have to have either a low intensity or early condensor arc to compliment that for the correct look.

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 04-11-2004 08:34 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I guess they didn't call them "flicks" for nothing!

Steve

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