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Author Topic: Film taking up on top of itself. Jeremy Fuentes Mmmm, Dr. Pepper! Posts: 1168 From: Corpus Christi, TX United States Registered: Jan 2004 posted 05-03-2004 09:41 AM                     We have CFS Super Platters, and despite the negative remarks I have seen on other threads, we havent had too many serious problems, up until last night, my day off by the way. I was picking up my paycheck when the projectionist asked the other manager to go take a look at # 1(Envy). I went up there, and the film had taken up fine for the first 2 reels, but the rest of the movie was on top of those reels. It was in a cone shape until it hit the platter above it, and ran out of room, and started to tangle up and pile up on itself. This took about 3 1/2 hours to fix, and needless to say, the print will look like crap when it runs again today. Unfortunately, I had to cut it a couple times, to untangle the mess. What would cause this to happen? Do I need to adjust the timing? The movie did not stop running, and the projectionist happened to be on a break at the time.  |  IP: Logged Aaron Sisemore Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day! Posts: 3061 From: Rockwall TX USA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 05-03-2004 11:35 AM                     In my experiences, I have found that 'coning' on takeup is 99.99999% a print-related problem (it would happen more than once in a given auditorium, and moving the print solved the problem) and I have had it happen with CFS, Strong, and Norelco/Kinoton platters. The other .000001% would point to either a misthread or a misaligned final takeup roller. As always, your mileage may vary... -Aaron  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-03-2004 02:32 PM                        A print that has been stretched by excessive tension or "roped" or creased by riding up on a sprocket may not wind evenly. Also, optimum winding usually occurs if the relative humidity is kept near the recommended 50 to 60 percent range. Very dry conditions can cause excessive curl and "spoking", which can cause winding problems. But if the print winds fine on other equipment, look to the equipment as the likely cause (e.g. excessive tension, misaligned roller).  |  IP: Logged Peter Mork Expert Film Handler Posts: 181 From: Newton, MA, USA Registered: Jun 2002 posted 05-03-2004 02:44 PM                     I believe this can happen when one edge of the film either gets a crimp in it or the perforations along one edge get stretched or distorted in some way. This makes that edge effectively thicker than the other, even though you may not be able to tell by looking at it or feeling it, and the projection is unaffected. Here's a solution: next time you run the film, take it up "upside down", with whichever edge you normally have facing up facing toward the platter. The "cone" won't form if the thicker edge is down. Try it!  |  IP: Logged Adam Wilbert Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 590 From: Bellingham, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002 posted 05-03-2004 03:55 PM                        On the super platters I used to run, if the roller cluster that slides up and down on the tree before the take up platter (I forget the official name) isn't seated correctly, it would feed into that cone shape. Though I'm not sure why it would feed fine for 2 reels, then go so high...  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 05-03-2004 06:21 PM                        i'd love to see pictures of this phenomenon. i can't see how it could ever go higher than a couple inches or so before the position of the last roller would retard its upward progress. and wouldn't the weight of 3-4 reels, as well as the pull of the winding tend to topple the cone? the worst i've seen is one film which for a few days would wrap some layers about 1/3" high, then calm down. the raised layers were pretty evenly distributed through the print. don't know why it happened, but it was not a persistent problem. carl  |  IP: Logged Lance C. McFetridge Expert Film Handler Posts: 135 From: Penn Yan, New York Registered: Jul 99 posted 05-03-2004 06:44 PM                     Hmmm... And just how was it that the projectionist/threader didn't catch this before it got that high? And what the hell is a break when projectioning?  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 05-03-2004 06:54 PM                        If other prints run fine through the same film path it has to be an issue with that specific print. My immediate response is 'slightly shrunk acetate!'. But of course, a print of a new mainstream film is going to be poly, so it ain't that. I once had a print of The Claim which refused to take up properly however much we coaxed it, and I later found out that other cinemas had had a similar problem with their prints of that film. Perhaps there was a problem with the antistatic layer on that batch of print stock? Agreed with Peter that taking up base out and emulsion out on alternate passes can calm a staticky print down very effectively, though I'd love to know the physics of why.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-03-2004 11:08 PM                     We had this happen on SPEOC platters last summer and the problem traveled with the print to what ever theatre it was moved to. We also thought it was the platter problem but it turned out to be the film. Mark  |  IP: Logged Jeremy Fuentes Mmmm, Dr. Pepper! Posts: 1168 From: Corpus Christi, TX United States Registered: Jan 2004 posted 05-04-2004 06:28 AM                     Thanks for the help guys. I was off yesterday, but I got a call from the manager saying that the platters for that particular show were all running too fast. I dont know if this has anything to do with the problem, but I will check them when I go in tonight.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 05-04-2004 06:56 AM                        If the take-up plate is pulling too hard that could exacerbate any pre-existing static issue with the print, I'd guess.  |  IP: Logged Jeremy Fuentes Mmmm, Dr. Pepper! Posts: 1168 From: Corpus Christi, TX United States Registered: Jan 2004 posted 05-04-2004 07:01 AM                     Would the print issues take that long to happen? This was on the final show of the weekend. I would think the problem would happen on one of the first few shows.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-04-2004 08:52 AM                        If the prints were running fine originally, and now won't wind correctly, perhaps they were damaged (stretched or creased) by excessive tension or another equipment problem? "Static cling" usually doesn't cause "coning" or "dishing" type winding problems.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 05-04-2004 10:42 AM                        OK, could a very little bit of excessive tension on the take up build up cumulatively, and then you notice the problem in the form of an uneven wind somwhere between pass 5 to 10 after it started? John's point about static cling taken (and therefore, accepting that the print is kosher), I can't help thinking that a platter take-up motor torque and/or speed issue could be behind this. John's other suggestion - that the print suffered some sort of damage on one particular pass which has stopped it from taking up evening on any subsequent ones - didn't occur to me, though I'd have thought that any such damage which wasn't in any way visible on the screen in one form or another would be unusual.  |  IP: Logged

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