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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » TROY shedding dust - lab problem? (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: TROY shedding dust - lab problem?
Christian Appelt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 505
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Registered: Dec 2001

- posted 05-17-2004 04:07 PM      Profile for Christian Appelt   Email Christian Appelt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It seems that there is some serious trouble with TROY prints on European markets. Many film handlers complain that all prints shed white dust like hell, many reels are wavy and curved when you build or rewind prints, and the Dolby Digital error rate is extremely high. Some theatres even went to SR because even replacement prints were no better. Image quality is lousy on many prints, big grain and lack of sharpness.

Now I heard from a distribution guy that the British and Italian labs were asked to skip certain steps to produce mass prints on a very short schedule. Maybe John P. and others know if this is possible at all in positive processing - I cannot think of anything but getting the prints dried at higher temperature or with chemical agents to speed up drying. My source said that this way of operation was ordered against the lab's recommendation.

Is this possible?

(Oh, and no, I do not yet know what manufacturer's print stock it is. But word is out that HARRY POTTER 3 will be done the same turbospeed way...)

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

- posted 05-17-2004 04:13 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here are the Kodak specifications for process ECP-2D:

http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/support/processing/h249/h2409.pdf

What film type? What lab?

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Christian Appelt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 505
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Registered: Dec 2001

- posted 05-17-2004 04:17 PM      Profile for Christian Appelt   Email Christian Appelt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was told Technicolor Rome and DeLuxe, but I will confirm this. Did not see a print myself, but I'll ask about the stock.

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 05-17-2004 07:41 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You'd think if they were really in a rush they would make some cyan-only prints [Wink]

--jhawk

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

- posted 05-17-2004 07:46 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does Achilles have a dandruff problem?

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

- posted 05-18-2004 05:11 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Italian's print are recently TERRIBLE.

Last dozen of movie I build were ALL scratched by print labs. Luckily only on one or two parts the scratches were visibile on the screen so the replacement were limited. But the print quality is lower and lower and lower...
I really cannot compare actual prints with ones that were made two or three years ago.

I've been told that the distributor asks for low quality print. They costs less and they're printed in few days, for anti-piracy policy.

I hope that it will change.

Bye
A

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Per Hauberg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 883
From: Malling, Denmark
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 05-19-2004 10:05 AM      Profile for Per Hauberg   Author's Homepage   Email Per Hauberg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Today it is Troy-day in Denmark.

-This is even worse than "Van Helsing"
On Troy the white/yellow dust is there, even before the film hits the projector !! - No joke ! Print arrived in single reels on cores, with the dust sitting on the reels, where it has been touching the cans sides. Never seen anything like it !

p.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

- posted 05-19-2004 10:20 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Christian Appelt
Now I heard from a distribution guy that the British and Italian labs were asked to skip certain steps to produce mass prints on a very short schedule.
quote: Antonio Marcheselli
I've been told that the distributor asks for low quality print. They costs less and they're printed in few days, for anti-piracy policy.
A lab that has been producing good prints doesn't shift their production process to produce "cheaper" prints of lower quality. They may use a cheaper raw stock, or somehow the prints were accidently damaged, scuffed, or dried improperly, but they don't have a separate production line for "cheap" prints.

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Christian Appelt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 505
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Registered: Dec 2001

- posted 05-19-2004 01:10 PM      Profile for Christian Appelt   Email Christian Appelt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Today I got a message about two TROY prints here in Germany. One projectionist said there was it was Kodak stock, another told me that the can were labeled ITALY / ESTAR.

I asked him about the print #, but he was afraid to get in trouble with the bosses of his chain, and he said that no one ever had reacted to complaints about even the worst prints (and this is one of the two largest theatre chains in Germany, so what a perverted business this has become...)

On a local projectionist's forum, several people mentioned that Dolby Digital was unplayable, so those who could swtched to DTS, other have to play in analog SR.

What a way to run a railroad.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

- posted 05-19-2004 02:04 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
First-hand information is needed. Hand-me-down information or rumor is often incomplete, erroneous, or exaggerated, and doesn't really help address a problem. [Frown]

We've had many cases where a print was blamed, and then a problem was found with a particular projector.

The edgeprint on the print is the only sure way to identify the stock used, and trace its manufacturing history. Sometimes, it is hard to determine which lab did the printing and processing, unless the lab uses unique leaders or prints identification on the leader or shipping labels.

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Per Hauberg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 883
From: Malling, Denmark
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 05-19-2004 08:05 PM      Profile for Per Hauberg   Author's Homepage   Email Per Hauberg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Christian Appelt
What a way to run a railroad.
And here we all thought, that only the former DDR had some few narrow gauge tracks left.... [Roll Eyes]

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Christian Appelt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 505
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Registered: Dec 2001

- posted 05-19-2004 10:01 PM      Profile for Christian Appelt   Email Christian Appelt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, I see your point. But in some companies, there still is the custom to chop off the head of the person delivering the bad news. I will ask the projectionists to contact you directly, but if they think they get in trouble by adressing the problem in public, this is something I have to respect. It's their job, not mine.

However, I will try to get information first-hand and look at a print myself next weekend.

Here is a link to a German projectionist forum, maybe someone from Kodak Germany could take a look at the descriptions and report to you if necessary:

http://forum.filmvorfuehrer.de/viewtopic.php?t=2992

This seems to be typical of a fresh "dusty" print (quoted from that forum thread):

quote:
reel 1: DD error rate 5 - F switching to analog several times
reel 2: DD error rate 4 - 5
reel 3: DD error rate 5 - 6
reel 4: DD error rate 3 - 5
reel 5: DD error rate 4 - 5
reel 6: DD error rate 4 - 5
reel 7: DD error rate4 - F switching to analog several times
reel 8: DD error rate3 - 5
reel 9: DD error rate6 - 6

CP650 processor, reverse scan reader. Reel 1 and 7 seem to be the worst on all 4 TROY print this theatre received.

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

- posted 05-21-2004 03:33 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John

I work in a 16plex, we receive all new prints. Recently at leat the 35% of reels we receive has some type of scratch on it. We screen all prints before show them to the audience and, luckily, many of these damages cannot be usually seen on the screen so we don't ask for replacements too often.
However I don't have many DD problem or DTS problems.

I receive my copies of Troy yesterday. At least 8 reels had continuing scratches on them. Luckily only a 10 seconds scratch on the base side was visible on one of the print. There is a white scratch at the 7th (not sure) reel for 15/20 seconds on all of the copy.

Unfortunately recently the quality of the print is the same with all titles.
The same scratches were found on Van Helsing for example.

I will post later a shot of a reel of troy...

Bye
A

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

- posted 05-21-2004 03:47 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Antonio:

Fortunately, it sounds like most of the scratches you are seeing are minor, and not reducing presentation quality. But you should still let the lab know that you are finding so many. Maybe some piece of lab equipment is causing a small scratch, but it could grow into a serious scratch, so the lab would appreciate the information. If you know which lab processed the print, send them a note and maybe some photos of the damage. If the scratches are always on the same side of the film, or in the same place, this is useful information to help the lab find the source.

With a new print, a lab scratch will typically extend from the leaders into the picture. If there is a leader splice, and the scratch is not on the leader, it's likely the film has been previously projected in a theatre that had made up the film into a larger roll or platter. If the scratch is only through part of the leader and extends into the body of the picture, it likely was caused during inspection projection at the lab, or in a previous theatre using changeovers.

A white scratch or white "shadow image" dirt is typically on the printing negative, and will affect multiple copies.

When a reel has a problem that seriously degrades presentation quality, you should definitely ask for a replacement reel immediately.

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

- posted 05-21-2004 03:56 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John

Sometimes I cannot undererstand why that scratches cannot be seen on the screen...

We always send a note to our film-buying dept that is constantly in contact with the labs or the distributor and we always replace reels that has evident problems.

Let's see this reel of troy, 5th reel. The second shot is out of focus, but you can see the sprocket footprint on the print.
I cannot understand how can I receive a damage like this from a lab... Technicolor in this case.

-

-

Bye
A

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