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Author Topic: Building Prints Questions. Thomas Dieter Expert Film Handler Posts: 234 From: Yakima, WA Registered: Jun 2004 posted 07-03-2004 10:44 PM                     I have read over the ways to build a print properly from this site, and I have no problems with how they explained what to do. I also searched the forums a little for a previous thread to ask these questions and read over first, but after half an hour of looking I gave up. What I am having a problem with is the use of shoe polish or a grease pen/pencil to mark the beginning of a reel for when you go to break down a print. No I have never used shoe polish on a print, but I have heard stories of other projectionists either running across a print that had shoe polish used on it, and or used it. I have been a projectionist for about 3 years now, and when I was trained, I the company that I worked for in Yakima Wa. never practiced the grease pen/shoe polish way to build a print. We used the (what we called) mowed lawn practice. That practice with White Splices for the reel changes worked fine. Now with clear splices, and tiger stripe splices, I can see why you might try the shoe polish or grease pen practice. Here are my questions. 1. Is there a problem or a reason that you shouldn't use a grease pen/pencil? Naturally there is the logical reason you don't want to use shoe polish. 2. Who has practiced this technique of building a print? 3. As a substitute for a grease pen when one runs out, and there are no more, would a Silver Sharpie be a good substitute? 4. Now this one is pointed to those that are trained with the TA-10 Automation systems. In the manual for the cue, it suggests that you take and put a clear half splice over the cue to insure that the cue won't come off. Is this the correct way to put them on, or is it okay to just put the cue on without the half splice?  |  IP: Logged Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 07-04-2004 12:18 AM                     The reason you shouldn't mark a print in ANY way is because you will destroy the digital soundtrack(s). If you mark the edge, you will mess up the SDDS track, if you use too much then you will bleed into the Dolby Digital track. And yes, I've even seen markings and grease and shoe polish all the way into the analog sound and even into the picture. It's just a mess. Now I know what you're thinking. Dollar theaters, who are most likely to play the print after you, don't have SDDS or other digital sound. That's incorrect. I work at a sub-run theater with both SDDS and DTS sound. Unfortunately, due to the way most places treat their prints, we have only successfuly played ONE movie in SDDS that didn't drop out the entire year we've been open -- and that print came from our first-run sister theater. But take that a step further and think of titles like Spiderman, Titanic, or Lord of the Rings which people may want to run again in the future. If they choose to play these in digital, they may be out of luck. It's not that hard to find a splice - even clear ones - when breaking down a print. For one, each reel is a slightly different shade when on the platter. Once you start to reach the end of a particular shade, just start carefully feeling for a splice. You'll never miss it. Or at least use Edgemark tape or something else that can be removed as opposed to permenantly marking a print. Silver Sharpie is probably the worst option, as even shoe polish can be removed with some effort. =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 07-04-2004 01:17 AM                     Another reason I have been taught not to use anything to mark the reels with is if the stuff doesn't dry completely before you continue winding the film, it could cause two layers of film to stick together. Ouch! Other operators at my theater currently use the CPI Edgemark tape. I refuse to use it (see below). My last theater used only clear splicing tape (our owner doesn't like zebra tape -- kudos to him!), and I never had any difficulty breaking down a print. As Thomas P. said, simply slow down when you get near the beginning of the reel, and feel for the splice. Works every time. If you absolutely have to mark your reel changes, Edgemark is the way to go. It isn't messy, and can be easily removed by the next operator. A few words of caution, though. If applied incorrectly, it can cause SRD to revert, and it can cause a horizontal image shift as it goes through the gate. You should only use half an inch to an inch. Any more is simply unnecessary. As explained in the review , the tape is too wide, and it partially covers the SRD track. Therefore, by using more than about an inch, you will be covering too much of the SRD track, and it will revert. This, of course, assumes your theater is equipped to play SRD. If not, then the only problem with the Edgemark will be the image shift, just as with a splice. What is this "mowed lawn practice"? [ 07-04-2004, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: Ken Lackner ]  |  IP: Logged Wolff King Morrow Master Film Handler Posts: 490 From: Denton, TX, USA Registered: Feb 2004 posted 07-04-2004 05:37 AM                        Edit: My bad. I thought this thread was about breaking down a print by mistake. That's what I was talking about below. A method I have used in the past is to place a small square of masking tape beside each splice when I am ready to break down the print (note I am talking about the print as it sits on the platter waiting to be broken down). Now I know others may flame me by saying this leaves residue, but I have found that only OLD masking tape left on for an extended amount of time or in hot conditions leaves residue. My tape markers were removed within minutes of placing them, and as such I saw absolutely no trace of any residue left behind. No damage to the print edges, no residue, and in fact the print was pristine when I finished. Now I just eyeball the print splices like some of the others here do, but I saw no faults in my previous method as a beginner for the reasons I stated above.  |  IP: Logged Peter Mork Expert Film Handler Posts: 181 From: Newton, MA, USA Registered: Jun 2002 posted 07-04-2004 09:22 AM                     Silver paint markers don't work very well. I find the lines are hard to see. I have used white or yellow paint markers (prefer nontoxic type, such as Speedball Painters, to the Xylene variety - the paint on the water-based ones seems more permanent, and they don't make you swoon from the fumes). I put a thin line on the emulsion side at the beginning of each reel, for a couple of turns. Unlike shoe polish it won't cause a mess. This REALLY helps in breakdowns. I don't agree that finding a clear splice is always easy, especially in a dimly lit booth late at night when you have a lot of breakdown work to do and don't need the aggrivation of trying to guess where the heck your splice is. Tiger tape is pretty useless, in my experience. As for the digital soundtrack objection, you might want to forego doing this on SDDS prints. Someday not long from now SDDS will disappear (for good or ill). [ 07-06-2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Peter Mork ]  |  IP: Logged John Anastasio Master Film Handler Posts: 325 From: Trenton, NJ, USA Registered: Sep 2000 posted 07-04-2004 09:30 AM                        An old trick I learned when taping on live broadcasts was to pop a small piece of paper in the reel at the spot you want to locate. It's easy to do on the last run of a film. Stick a little paper "flag" in the film as it winds over a splice. NOthing sticks to the film, there's no residue and it's REAL easy to see. Personally, I find it just as easy to use my finger resting on the side of the film as it rewinds back onto a reel. Splices definitely can be felt.  |  IP: Logged Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 07-04-2004 02:01 PM                     Good suggestion, John. I use the paper trick when marking the roll for when someone fogot to stick a cue on to bring the lights up or down. Works great. Peter -- My booth is so dim, even with all the lights on, you still need a flash on the camera to get anything but a black picture. The point is, if there's enough light available for you to thread the projector accurately, then there should be more than enough light to find the splices when breaking down a print. The key is to FEEL for the splice when you're getting near the end, instead of just look for them. But whatever works best, I suppose. I managed to break down a 3-hour print (Dogville, 10 reels) in a little less than an hour. This was a Lion's Gate print, and I'm not sure what film stock(s) they use, but whenever I build a print from them or another small studio (newmarket), the roll is one continuous shade instead of varying shades of reels like most other prints. This makes it harder, but it can still be done. =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-04-2004 02:24 PM                     For theaters that have operators that just cannot handle not having the print obviously identified, I push this option. Splice the back side of the print first (base side, assuming you run soundtrack up), flip the print over and cut a strip from your Artist's tape (which every theater is requird to have by professional law) that is 3/4" wide (the width of the tape) and about 1/16" tall. Lay this piece on the inboard side of the sprockets, then lay the splicing tape down across the front side of the print as normal. When breaking down, the Artist's tape leaves no residue (unlike the Edgemark) and will not interfere with any digital soundtrack. Nor does it suffer "bleeding" issues like paint pens and shoe polish does. It is also just as easy to see as opaque tape pulling off of the roll. The only disadvantage is that on some projectors it will cause a quick blip in focus for 2 frames, but it is generally very minor and certainly less obtrusive to the focus than Edgemark tape. As you can see, in a dark environment, the white mark shows up very well.  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 07-05-2004 01:06 AM                     Brad: Your method is quite interesting. However, seems like it produces the same end result as zebra tape: once the splice is reached during breakdown, you can tell whether it is your changeover splice by the mark, as opposed to a mid reel splice, which would have no mark. The reason people use Edgemark, is because you can easily see it while looking at the top of the print on the platter, and from there you can tell you have a changover splice, not a mid reel splice. I'm not saying I condone using Edgemark; I do not.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-05-2004 01:44 AM                     Assuming that only one yellow line was placed on the film similar to the picture above, yes it's basically the same thing. The big issue is that there exist no zebra tape made by any company that peels off effortlessly. Not even Neumade's zebra peels off without leaving residue.  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 07-05-2004 01:47 AM                     Why would their clear tape peel so effortlesly (I assume it does because you have not made an issue of it here), but not their zebra tape? Isn't the adhesive the same?  |  IP: Logged Josh Kirkhart Expert Film Handler Posts: 165 From: Austin/Houston, TX, USA Registered: Nov 2001 posted 07-05-2004 02:40 AM                     1. Interferes with the digital soundtrack (SDDS) 2. Yes, many people have and continue to do it, whether it was taught to them and/or is company policy. Very few Reparatory titles I have handled and seen have NOT been marked in these ways. 90% of them for feet upon feet of film. 3. If marking edges is what they do, then I don't see why a colored sharpie would be different. 4. A one-sided splice over a cue is fine and in good practice. It makes it easier to identify in breakdown/build-up for removal. In cases of Barcoded cues a splice under the cue is easier to remove as it is less widely used. As far as cues coming off, never seen it or had it happen, at worst you replace it. If your doing this with on-screen presentation in mind you make sure your Full-down cue is on the last trailer before the feature in the black at the end. In theatres which still use digital tags (DTS,SDDS,SRD) or policy trailers the cue for best effect is placed before said tag. This reduces any inside-frame cues from being seen, and any movement in the gate is not noticed. For the credit cue more delicacy and preference is used, just so that the lights are timed correctly and the cues are seen as little as possible. End cues are easy and for the most part are not seen by most audience members but still should be done carefully. Ken, You obviously are not going to be edge-marking prints with anything according to your latter posts. If you are using the 'feel' method and train anyone else with the same mentality and skills, why the edge-mark question. Brad, people that edgemark want the easy way out and you know it, so showing them this step is fruitless as they will be going so fast they could not see the white tape, zebra or anything similar. As Ken stated this is for people that need to know when to go from MACH speed to cruise. The real solution is to hang a light, or grab a portable light, and then train yourself and your staff how to break down correcty. Rant off.  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 07-05-2004 02:51 AM                     quote: Josh Kirkhart Ken, You obviously are not going to be edge-marking prints with anything according to your latter posts. If you are using the 'feel' method and train anyone else with the same mentality and skills, why the edge-mark question. Just playing Devil's advocate in trying to explain why people feel the need to use Edgemark even though they already have zebra tape. And I completely agree that the people most likely to use Edgemark are the lazy ones. They're not going to be bothered to take the time to use Brad's method.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-05-2004 03:26 AM                     Ken and Josh, lots of people have converted to using just that splice tip, despite what you may think. Regardles, I do agree people should just learn to do things the right way, but this is better than the alternatives for the stubborn ones.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-05-2004 05:52 AM                        Occasionally I run 6000ft reels and when we have to play 16mm, it is on long playing reels. These are almost always used, older prints and they can have lots of splices -- and it's not uncommon to find the splices concentrated around the reel heads and tails. Until I read Brad's suggestion about marking the reels themselves at the film line, I used to use a white grease pencil. Actually it's a mechanical feed pencil made by Rosco that is very handy -- no paper wraps to get a sharp point (which hardly ever works properly), just a quick twist and you have a new point....same principal as a mechanical lead pencil. I would not mark the sprocket area, but only make a short, inch line on the film body, i.e., on the side of the film roll. This seemed to work very well and the thing I liked about it is that with just a dab of Ecco 1500 on a clean, soft rag, the mark removes completely in one swipe, which I would always do on breakdown. Since this grease compound (it's not really grease) is so easily removed, I wouldn't put it in the same class as the more other permanent markers (who was it that first thought, "gee, here's some shoe polish....let me use it to mark film"?). Even if someone were to mark the grease pencil right on the sprocket hole area instead of the side of the roll, and even if it were to migrate into any of the soundtrack areas (which I never found it to do...it pretty much stays put), it can be cleaned so quickly and thoroughly, that I would think it could be considered film-fiendly. Indeed, when prints come in that have those big diagonal grease pencil slashes across the change-over frames, put on by all those near-blind projectionists who can't see cues, I actually whisper a happy "thank you" to them because I am so grateful that they did use grease pencil rather than having at the print with those dreaded razor blades, kitchen knives, paper punches and every other implement of destruction to mutilate the emulsion that we see all too often in older prints. That big red diagonal slash across the cue frame wipes off in just a few seconds, no harm done. A short line on the film edge to mark the reel joing isn't harmful at all.  |  IP: Logged

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