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Author Topic: Linty Printy Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 10-14-2004 11:44 PM                    A print...possibly new, not sure...with what appeared to be lint visibly coming out of the edges of the film pack on the reels...but only on the track edge. All 6 reels. As though someone wound it while in close contact with a wool blanket to that edge. I was able to remove most of it by holding a velvet to the edge while winding. The material was definitely fibers of some kind. I wonder, however, if maybe it wasn't foreign matter but some defective lab equipment scraping that edge of the film and thus creating fibers out of polyester. This is not the first time I've observed this odd phenomenon.  |  IP: Logged Dominic Case Expert Film Handler Posts: 131 From: Sydney NSW Australia Registered: Aug 2003 posted 10-15-2004 01:45 AM                       Probably wound onto a take-up with a plate that was seriously out of alignment, just as Steve suggests. I note Steve is - typically ;-) - ready to assume it is the lab that's to blame, even though he's not sure if the print is new. I'd suggest it is unlikely to be lab equipment if the entire copy is affected. Different reels are printed and processed on different machines. Unless you have a complete copy that was selected for a screening in the lab then returned to despatch, I doubt if every reel would have gone through any of the same equipment. More likely to be a print sent on from another theatre.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 10-15-2004 08:13 AM                    Don't be so touchy. I'm not picking on labs; it's just that I don't know of a theatre issue that can cause this. The print had not been plattered so that leaves out anything to do with platter decks and/or rollers. And theatres here don't generally take up on flanges. I suppose something amiss in a projector possibly could but it's not something I've ever heard of even during the white dust (early polyester) era. Something shed in a projector would likely stay there so your mention of take-up is probably more likely. Maybe an issue with the rod that holds film to a flange? That's presuming it is in fact polyester scrapings. Any way to tell? Edit: Adding this information: New print, Deluxe Hollywood, On 2383 [ 10-15-2004, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Steve Kraus ]  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-15-2004 12:36 PM                     I have seen this as well Steve, and always on new prints. Generally it only affects a couple of reels in the print though. It's definitely lab related or film stock slitting related. I've never seen it affect the image quality provided film cleaners are used though.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 10-15-2004 01:24 PM                    It's pretty loose material so probably would not survive printing & processing if it was on the raw stock so I'm going to go with something happening with the inspection projection or other post processing procedure.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-15-2004 07:33 PM                     brad said"It's definitely lab related or film stock slitting related" I know of no component in a processing machine or printer that wuld cause that and I have seen it before as well Often the cause is a gate with sudio rails or lateral guides pinching to tightly on the print At the lab there is still so much moisture content edge damage like that are very uncommon  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-15-2004 08:30 PM                     Gordo, I have seen these prints come directly from the depot, brand new from the lab on clip together reels like this. Yes, at least what I have seen, it IS happening at (or before) the lab.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 10-16-2004 07:36 AM                        quote: Steve Kraus I was able to remove most of it by holding a velvet to the edge while winding. The material was definitely fibers of some kind. I wonder, however, if maybe it wasn't foreign matter but some defective lab equipment scraping that edge of the film and thus creating fibers out of polyester. This is not the first time I've observed this odd phenomenon. Although a bad slitter knife can produce base or emulsion skivings, it would normally be caught very quickly by the film manufacturer's QC. And even if some bad rolls got through the system to the lab, the lab would quickly see a signal with increased shadow image dirt (the dirt particles block light during printing, resulting in a white image on the final print). As Dominic notes, any stock or lab problem would be unlikely to affect all the reels of a print, since different equipment and even different days are involved for each reel. When all reels of a print are affected, look to operations that handled the entire print over the same equipment. This could happen during positive assembly, or some types of print mounting or inspection operations. And of course, it can happen if a spliced print is run over misaligned rollers, or through a projector that is skiving the film edge (e.g., pinched by a pad roller, rough edge or pinched in the gate). Quick tests for identifying film-related debris: Gelatin emulsion will dissolve in hypochlorite laundry bleach (e.g., Clorox, Sunny-Sol). Triacetate film base will dissolve in acetone or film splicing cement. Polyester film base will NOT dissolve in any common solvent or water-based chemical.  |  IP: Logged Ian Joseph Parfrey Film Handler Posts: 56 From: Bollier Queensland Australia Registered: Sep 2004 posted 10-17-2004 04:56 AM                     Wouldn't be the result of iffy edge waxing? I know that poly prints don't need edge waxing but I have seen poly prints waxed all the same and they did run through well. Just a thought.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-17-2004 12:52 PM                     quote"I know that poly prints don't need edge waxing" You know wrong all prints beniit from edgewaxing at the lab (which is still a recomended practice) as green prints will have issues especially in high temperature gates  |  IP: Logged Ian Joseph Parfrey Film Handler Posts: 56 From: Bollier Queensland Australia Registered: Sep 2004 posted 10-17-2004 04:00 PM                     Should have phrased it better. What I meant was, in comparison to acetate stock, poly runs better without waxing. The problem with green prints usually, in my humble experience, usually vanishes after a few runs. Quote "as green prints will have issues especially in high temperature gates". I reckon any print, green or otherwise, will have issues in high temp gates. Blistering, embossing etc. That's what water and forced air cooling are there for. So, is it wax that's causing the "Linty Printy" or what?  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-17-2004 05:27 PM                     Edgewaxing should not cause these fluff  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 10-17-2004 08:27 PM                        Laboratory edge waxing as specified by Kodak's ECP-2D processing specifications (H-24-02, H-24-09) and by SMPTE Recommended Practice RP151 consists of a hard wax (usually solid paraffin or carnauba) dissolved in a solvent and applied only to the perforation and edge area (SDDS area) of release prints. When the solvent evaporates, it leaves behind a thin hazy residue of wax. Edge waxing greatly extends the projection life of prints by reducing the force needed to pull the film through the projector gate, and by lubricating the film surface to better resist projector abrasion and scuffing. Any buildup of wax would be soft and "waxy", and not hard, "linty", or "fluff" like like.  |  IP: Logged

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