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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Strong Ultra 80 vs Cinemeccanica ZX 8000 (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Strong Ultra 80 vs Cinemeccanica ZX 8000
Ari Nordström
Master Film Handler

Posts: 283
From: Göteborg, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-02-2005 05:47 PM      Profile for Ari Nordström   Email Ari Nordström   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello everyone,

We're going to throw out our old Cinemeccanica Zenith X4000 lamphouses after some 28 years of service, and are considering the Strong Ultra 80 to replace them. However, our usual tech also happens to be a Cinemeccanica rep and would like us to consider their ZX 8000 house.

Now, a search on the forums gave the Ultra 80 some very nice reviews but I couldn't find anything on the Cinemeccanica house so I'd very much appreciate any information you might have on both of these houses. And also, I'm assuming that at 4.5 kW, the Ultra 80 wouldn't be too harmful to 35 mm prints. Is this safe to do?

We show both 35 and 70 mm, today with 4 kW standing OSRAM bulbs and IREM rectifiers. The projectors are Zeiss Favorit70s with water-cooled gates. Our screen is fairly large (about 15 meters) and the old houses haven't really been up to the task. The IREMs we'd like to keep, though, if at all possible.

Best regards,

/Ari

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-02-2005 06:15 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We've run Strong Ultra-80s up to 6K (with a heat filter) on 35mm.

No problems. I haven't worked with the Cinemeccanica lamphouse so I can't comment on it.

Steve

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-02-2005 08:20 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You may want to verify that the strong can be placed at the right working distance on those prevost(zies) favorites. The optical soundhead sticks out the back so it might be an issue
The cinemecanica lamphouse (especially the glass mirror ones) will produce very good light

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Andrew McCrea
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 645
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-02-2005 09:21 PM      Profile for Andrew McCrea   Author's Homepage   Email Andrew McCrea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've also heard very good things about the Ultra 80, however I've only been near a Super 80 and it produced very good light with a 4500w xenon. I've heard the Ultra 80 is a better choice however as it has much better cooling!

The sales literature for the Strong series of lamphouses can be found here:
http://www.strong-cinema.com/downloads/specs/lamphouse/Lamps.pdf

Hope this helps!

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Ari Nordström
Master Film Handler

Posts: 283
From: Göteborg, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-03-2005 01:32 AM      Profile for Ari Nordström   Email Ari Nordström   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, all.

As for the optical soundheads, they're being replaced by red light thingies in short order. I assume they'll stick up in the back some but I don't have the numbers yet. [Frown]

I'm thinking Ultra 80 for the moment if everything else works out. We can get a very good deal from Strong.

Steve, would you say that the heat filter is essential?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-03-2005 02:23 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I generally run a heat filter on anything above 3KW on any metal reflector. Strong's metal reflectors run a cool as anyone elses that I've come across so yes, I would say a heat filter is essential. The Ultra-80 has the heat filter as a standard piece of equipment. It is optional on the Super-80 (same lamphouse, less cooling).

Steve

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-03-2005 09:53 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A heat filter is certainly "essential" to protect B&W silver image prints from heat damage with larger lamps, and is "recommended" for reducing "focus flutter" with any print:

Heat Damage Part 1

Heat Damage Part 2

quote:
New theater construction emphasizes "wall to wall" images on screens that often exceed fifty feet in width. Only five years ago, the average xenon bulb power was 2000 watts. Today, power levels of 4000 watts are common, with some theaters using as many as 7000 watts to project 35 mm film onto 80 foot screens.

Focusing all that power through a postage-stamp size piece of film can cause problems ranging from image flutter and focus drift to permanent print damage like blistering, scorching, fading and dye migration. In our years of studying the effects of excessive heat on film, Kodak has identified three major areas of concern: improper or non- existent use of heat filters,
excessive bulb current, and maladjustment of bulb focus causing a "hot spot."

Heat Filters

Use of efficient heat filters is recommended for all projectors and is mandatory for any lamp larger than 2000 watts. Aluminized, silver, or rhodium surfaced reflectors without heat filtration are intended only for specialized applications and should not be used for theaters. Xenon bulbs emit a large amount of their energy in the infrared portion of the spectrum. Excess infrared energy absorbed by the film is a major source of heat damage, especially with blackand-white prints (silver grains absorb more infrared energy than color dyes).

An efficient heat filter removes most of the damaging infrared energy produced by the lamp. Most heat filters rely on diachronic coatings on the reflector, making it reflect visible light and absorb infrared energy. Consoles with vertically-mounted bulbs usually use a flat diachronic mirror set at a 45-
degree angle, which reflects visible light to the aperture and transmits the unwanted infrared energy to a heat sink.
The efficiency of heat filters varies among manufacturers, and is affected by the age and condition of the dichroic coatings. When purchasing new lamphouses, compare the efficiency of the heat filter system in rejecting unwanted ultraviolet and infrared energy. Always keep the surface of the mirror and heat filters clean and dust free, using the cleaning procedures
recommended by the manufacturer. Dichroic coatings are very fragile and easily damaged if cleaned improperly. Heat filters with obviously worn, pitted, or damaged dichroic coatings should be replaced. Do not remove heat filters or use reflectors with no heat protection, even to get a bit more light on the screen. You'll get a bit more light-and a lot more heat damage


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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 01-03-2005 10:09 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have used the ZX 8000 in an installation with a 22 meter screen with excellent results. The unit uses a dichoric glass reflector which is much more even and easier to aline versus the Strong 80 series lamphouses. The build quality versus Strong is also much better. The weak U.S. dollar should be giving Strong a price advantage and should do well compared to the antique lamphouse you are now retiring. If you go with the Strong a heat filter is highly recommended since metal dichorics are not as efficient in IR elimination compared to glass.......also make sure that there is proper clearance for the Strong unit to be used with the Prevost and the ignitor is set for the lower no load D.C. voltage of the IREM.

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Ari Nordström
Master Film Handler

Posts: 283
From: Göteborg, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-04-2005 01:34 AM      Profile for Ari Nordström   Email Ari Nordström   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, yes, I'm rather thankful for the weak US dollar for the moment. Moneywise, the Cinemeccanica cannot compete.

And thank you all, again. This is all very useful information.

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Erick Akers
Arse Kicker

Posts: 201
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 01-04-2005 02:16 AM      Profile for Erick Akers   Email Erick Akers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ari,
Is your e mail address up to date?
I would like to speak to you about the Zeiss Favorit 70's.

(currently I am restoring a match pair and could use some advice)

I believe we share A mutual friend, Paul Rayton.

He Sent me a copy of the 70mm Bull Shit convention DVD, and I sent a 70mm short with him on his last trip.

You run a beautiful theater! [thumbsup]

Please get in touch,

Erick

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Ari Nordström
Master Film Handler

Posts: 283
From: Göteborg, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-03-2005 07:16 AM      Profile for Ari Nordström   Email Ari Nordström   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I thought you'd like to know that we've installed the Ultra 80 houses now. The installation was largely painless, in spite of us deciding to put them in on the same day as the Göteborg Film Festival opened last Friday. They really produce beautiful light.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-03-2005 07:54 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I've heard the Ultra 80 is a better choice however as it has much better cooling!

Actually the Christie lamphouses have the best cooling system of them all and the highest light output.

Mark

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-03-2005 09:19 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark the christie also has an excessivly high colour temperature as well and if one filters its output to SMPTE spec (which is what prints are timed to) then the loss of light negates any gains

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Thomas King
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 119
From: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Registered: Oct 2004


 - posted 02-03-2005 09:58 AM      Profile for Thomas King   Author's Homepage   Email Thomas King   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"And as always I will chime in after Gordon and clarify that the SMPTE recommendation is 3 decades old..."

[Smile]

(Quoting Brad, obviously)

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-03-2005 10:06 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"And as always I will chime in after Gordon and clarify that the SMPTE recommendation is 3 decades old."
which is still the standard that all film labs time prints to and if any group was to change that it would be based on a choice by DOP's and the colour timers not a sole equipment manufacturer
It isn't an acident how the chromaticy of projected light was derived

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