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Author Topic: Emulsion pulls off base Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-10-2005 10:02 AM                        I have come across this problem in the past, but never to this extent. The print of THE INNOCENTS, incept code ^ [] ^ which is 1984 -- so it's not exactly a new print, has a condition where the emulsion pulls right off the base like it isn't even attached as you try to remove splicing tape. In other words, it sticks to the splicing tape stronger than to the base. Not only does it come off clean and completely, but it will actually peel emulsion off beyond the splice, so you could easily ruin two or three frames at a time if you treat it like a normal print. What is going on? Is there any remedy to this condition -- other than never removing splices? It will quickly become a junk print if each time it is spliced for platter or LP a frame or two is lost at each joint. Can it somehow be treated to reverse this condition? The only alternative that I could think of (if a chemical treatment of some kind is not available) would be to use prepunched splicing tape and apply a length of say 3 or 4 inches at the end and beginning of each reel at the leader joints. This way when doing normal print buildup and breakdown, splicing tape will be applied to the underlying longer lenght of protective tape and not to the emulsion; when a splice is broken and the tape is pulled off, it will be pulled off the protective tape below rather than being pulled directly off the emulsion itself. That should work until someone trys to peel off the protective tape layer and rips off 4 inches of emulsion! It is a shame too because the film is a good one, THE INNOCENTS, and I can't imagine Criterion has more than one or two prints, which may also exhibit this problem. Once this print is gone, it will be a cold day in hell before anyone strikes a new one.  |  IP: Logged Jonathan M. Crist Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 531 From: Hershey, PA, USA Registered: Apr 2000 posted 01-10-2005 10:15 AM                     I own an IB tech print of The Greatest Show On Earth from 1952. The same sort of thing happened with my Greatest Show print. For no apparent reason portions of the emulsion would just separate from the base. This would occur with large sections - no splicing tape - the emulsion just literally fell off. Sadly this print is now essentially worthless.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 01-10-2005 10:20 AM                        I suspect the triacetate film base may have degraded due to improper storage (warm/humid causing beginning of "vinegar syndrome"), so the bond between the emulsion and support was weakened. To prevent further hydrolysis, store the film cool, dry and vented. If sealed cans are used, Molecular Sieves will adsorb any excess moisture or acids in the enclosed storage container.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-10-2005 04:38 PM                     I've seen this a lot with black and white prints, even from the 90s. I remember handling 3 different prints of Schindler's List and on all 3 of them the emulsion peeled when I was breaking them down. I peeled the tape anyway and tried to ensure it didn't peel the emulsion into the next picture, but any way you slice it the next guy had to chop a frame off on the next build. The worst tape was Hudson Photographic (aka: QuickSplice) and to a minor extent Neumade.  |  IP: Logged Bill Gabel Film God Posts: 3873 From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA Registered: Jan 2002 posted 01-10-2005 05:08 PM                     I had the same problem with "Schindler's List", when it opened. Technicolor & Universal kept sending new Show Prints over to find out the problem. I ended up with 9 prints for two screens. Technicolor had us try this stuff called Tomacoat on a few of the prints. That stuff was very wicked  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-10-2005 05:36 PM                        I've never seen this issue with color prints (Eastman or IB), but it's definitely an issue with B&W prints. William Hooper has pointed this out as well. When shipping out B&W prints from platter houses, I always single-side splice on the base side to avoid causing the next theatre to lose another frame.  |  IP: Logged William Hooper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1879 From: Mobile, AL USA Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-11-2005 02:10 AM                        It only seems to be an issue with b&w US prints since the 1990s. I don't recall having the problem running foreign b&w prints or rep prints struck earlier than the 90s. So I'd ascribe it to a modern domestic b&w print production/process defect. There was a print of Roman Holiday that was a terror of "please stop, please stop" emulsion peeling, & whoever had it before plainly was struggling to deal with it also. Some areas where the emulsion had detached in the middle of a frame & torn off they'd colored black with a Sharpie or something, then covered/protected the emulsion abscess with a splat of splicing tape - the alternative of cutting frames would have been huge loss, a choppy print, & likely just worsening the emulsion peeling when the film was cut. It's nightmarish at heads & tails that have been cut & spliced & must be repaired - peeling splices takes the emulsion with it. The best you can do is be very slow & delicate, attack the splice adhesive first by working at the edges with lighter fluid, & only peel starting on the end of the tape *away* from the cut & peel toward the cut. The emulsion will likely start popping off anyway at the cut when you get the tape off, has to be carefully positioned back down on the base as the splice is made, & the splice pretty much then just braces the emulsion on its side as the physical join & strength is made via the tape on the base side. The next time the leaders, tails, & splices are peeled must be cut at a platter house, there'll be more damage & loss. quote: Frank Angel It is a shame too because the film is a good one, THE INNOCENTS I know that was one jittery, massively creeped-out audience walking out of your theatre! Good movie, lucky you!  |  IP: Logged Brian Douglass Film Handler Posts: 7 From: Hopewell Junction NY Registered: Dec 2003 posted 01-11-2005 02:54 AM                     I'm wondering if you applied some Kodak Fixer to it, if it would coat the emulsion from coming off. I know that when I develop 16mm and 35mm, if it's not fixed all the way, you can take the emulsion off with your finger nail. But if the print is in and out, maybe you wouldn't want to go through all the trouble.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 01-11-2005 05:41 AM                     Do you mean while the film's still wet, or after it's dried? Fixing as such won't stop the emulsion coming off, but some fixers do contain a hardener, usually potassium alum I think, to reduce the chances of emulsion damage during handling while wet. For still films it's generally recommended to use a non-hardening fixer these days. I don't know if a hardening fixer is still used for motion picture films.  |  IP: Logged Brian Douglass Film Handler Posts: 7 From: Hopewell Junction NY Registered: Dec 2003 posted 01-11-2005 04:25 PM                     It is! I actually used some developing some Motion Picture Film in my basement. I couldn't hurt to try it. I think you can order some at www.bhphotovideo.com for like, $3.  |  IP: Logged

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