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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Wireless microphone coverage in all auditoriums (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Wireless microphone coverage in all auditoriums
Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

- posted 01-21-2005 05:39 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Our ushers do welcome speeches before every single show. In our new location, we want to make their task a little easier by equipping them with wireless microphones. There will only be one welcome speech at any time, so we won't have to worry about zoning and assigning various frequencies.
The problem here is that I want to (surprise!) set up that system to be as effective (coverage in all auditoriums, the lobby is not needed) and cost-effective as possible. Obviously, using 1 dual-input receiver for two adjacent auditoriums would be a very easy solutions, but would end us up with having to buy 7 receivers for 14 auditoriums. I am researching splitter and distribution systems, but haven't found one yet which would allow us to simply use 14 or antennas (or less when it turns out that signal reception reaches further into the booth than anticipated), combine all these antennas to one receiver which would feed our USL music distribution system as "program B" which then would run to the indidual soundracks parralel with the intermission music into non-sync 2.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 01-21-2005 06:39 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike have you considered just skipping the wireless part? Run a simple 2-cond shield cable in each room and mount a jack near the screen (TRS or XLR, your pick). Use an RDL STM-1 to preamp the signal into Non-Sync 2. At that point you only have one conventional microphone and cable traveling about. The most that could "walk" is that same cable. Alternatively you could even mount a box with the mic in it at each auditorium.

What does wireless get you in this situation? More batteries to keep track of and more expense in the equipment. The cost of running plenum mic cable is pretty cheap in comparison.

Steve

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 01-21-2005 06:45 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually Audio Technica makes an inexpensive line of wireless mic receivers and transmitters that operate on assigned UHF high frequency bands. These work excellent in theatre application and in all the applications I've installed them in, mainly in Theatres(live and cinema)and in schools where vhf units would suffer drastically. In fact the receiver is about the same price as a 500 foot roll of Belden Plenun mic cable and can be rack mounted! The transmitters are available in a variety of types. With all the positive experience I've had with them I would definately reccomend you look into them as an option to simply having a hard wire set up. If at all possible use the surround channel for voice announcements. The built in delay completely eliminates any chance of feedback and everyone will hear whats being said no matter what.

Mark @ CLACO

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

- posted 01-21-2005 07:49 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
Mike have you considered just skipping the wireless part?
I did and that's what I had planned. When I went to talk to my boss about whether he wanted just the input jack near the screen, or a box with a button to switch the CP to the mic format (which I wanted to advise against since it adds an element that people can peel open and mess around in), I found out he had been dreaming about a wireless system all the time. [Big Grin]
They would like the ushers to be able to walk into the auditorium and halfway up the steps. That is our "style".

So far, we have been looking at Shure equipment options, but the best we could do (cost wise) would be to use splitters to share the two (half-wave) antennas between two auditoriums, leaving us to get 7 receivers. Apparently there is no equipment which would allow us to mount antennas strategically placed throughout the booth and route them all to one single distribution unit, or if there is, it seems to be too expensive to consider.
Mark - which of the Audio Technica systems have you used? Did you mount one of each in each sound rack? It is too late in the week to get pricing, but if they are really that inexpensive (and still work OK), then that would be a simple solution. Can you select frequencies in the field or are they factory preset?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 01-21-2005 08:14 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Michael Schaffer
Mark - which of the Audio Technica systems have you used? Did you mount one of each in each sound rack? It is too late in the week to get pricing, but if they are really that inexpensive (and still work OK), then that would be a simple solution. Can you select frequencies in the field or are they factory preset?
It was the AT 1400 series that I used the most. These things are so inexpensive that they are almost throw away priced if they break. Amazing because its also a true diversity system which alot of others at this price are not.....

They work great and can't be beat for the $$. I've used them in both very small installs and very large.

These are factory preset. Thats the main reason they are so inexpensive. But it also makes them more reliable as it does away with the stuff that booth mongers can screw up.

Yes, one in each sound rack.

I don't know this site, I just found it in a google search but it gives you an idea of how inexpensive they are. If bought in quantity they are even less expenive.
G&G Music

A-T Wireless page

1400 series manual

Hope this helps....

Mark

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

- posted 01-21-2005 08:38 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That is indeed very price-attractive, although the pricing seems to be confused: the complete sets either with UniPak or microphone are more expensive than if you buy receiver and microphone separately. But since all elements seem to be available separately, we should need to buy just 2 mics and 14 receivers, with an optional 15th receiver and 2 mics on a different frequency for special events.
Of course the price makes me suspicious: where do you pay the penalty?

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David Buckley
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 525
From: Oxford, N. Canterbury, New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2004

- posted 01-21-2005 10:59 PM      Profile for David Buckley   Author's Homepage   Email David Buckley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cytec http://www.cytec-ate.com amongst others do relay based matrix switchers that go to over 1GHz, so are fine for switching antennas to radio receivers. I'm sure it'll work out a lot cheaper than having over a dozen receivers, when you only need one as a time.

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

- posted 01-21-2005 11:08 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That doesn't really work, you would have to run to the unit to switch inputs all the time.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 01-21-2005 11:20 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The best kind of wireless microphone is the kind you plug in!

Unless you're willing to spend $1,000 apiece (more or less) you are going to get interference at least sometimes. Besides, even if you only spend a few hundred, you can spend a lot less running wires.

You can get a Shure 48-S microphone for about $50. XLR mic cables can be had for $25. Wall jacks $20 or less. Cable will cost a couple-few hundred for a 1000 foot spool or less if you shop the discuount houses.

Buy two mics/cables (one to keep as a spare) and you'd probably never have to worry about it again.

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

- posted 01-21-2005 11:33 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The best kind of wireless microphone is the kind you plug in!
Thanks, Randy. The best kind of response is the kind where people have actually read the thread!

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 01-22-2005 12:10 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Randy Stankey
Unless you're willing to spend $1,000 apiece (more or less) you are going to get interference at least sometimes.
Er....ah.... wrong Randy.... These and other similar UHF systems have their own designated band around 720 mhz that nothing else is operating on excepting other wireless systems. I can definately attest to that fact as SLC is the most congested RF area in the country thanks to the Air Force and other government stuff here(according to our local FCC guy). I will agree with your statement if you are operating VHF units... they suck big time and will only work reliably in very few instances, basically outdoors with no obstructions. UHF systems simply do not suffer from the same nagging problems that VHF systems do. Also, one unit will not interfer with another. There are sufficient UHF channels available to space 40 or more units far enough apart so there is no adjacent channel interference, this sort of thing is done all the time at live shows and plays on Broadway and Vegas. Also, while its generally easy to install fixed wire during a new install doing this after the fact can be very time consuming and actually cost more in labor than equipping an entire plex with wireless.... remember some areas require liscenced wire pullers and or electricians whilst the cinema circuit's tech can install the wireless stuff and in alot less time.

Mark

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

- posted 01-22-2005 03:10 AM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We do actually have a big Air Force base out there at El Centro, and I will check to see if there is any potential interference in that band (we just want our customers to hear the welcome speeches, not any radio traffic relating to Mexican Air Force planes being shot down while they're trying to invade California [Big Grin] ). But apart from that, Mark's suggestion seems to make a lot of sense from the practical and cost point of views, so we are looking into that first thing next week.

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David Buckley
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 525
From: Oxford, N. Canterbury, New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2004

- posted 01-22-2005 12:23 PM      Profile for David Buckley   Author's Homepage   Email David Buckley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The AT1400s run in UHF TV bandwidth, so you shouldnt have any problems from military or other users. Just from pranksters :-)

I'd recommend a compressor/limiter in chain with the mic audio, to (a) improve intelligability, and (b) protect B chain from overload. $99 is all you need to spend, example alesis 3630.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 01-22-2005 10:28 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Those 40 wireless microphones all in the same room are installed by a tech who knows his cookies. The room has been "swept" with a frequency analyzer to ensure there is no interference. The channels are picked to stay away from the local TV stations and other interference. (Which has just gotten harder to do because of the HDTV channels that are being put into operation.) On top of that, the units in question probably all have dual diversity and are probably frequency agile as well. Those units cost well over $1,000 apiece, not including the transmitters.

I have tried several wireless microphone systems in my auditorium. Yes, the UHF are the best of the lot. Even then, you have to do your homework. If you want your wireless unit to work well, you have to find out what all the on-air TV stations are in your area and how far away from them you are. You need to pick the frequency set that's farthest away from the channels in your area. (Usually channels 56 through 59... Up there in the 720 MHz range.)

I have three wireless in my auditorium. When it all came out in the wash, we probably spent about $800 per. They work well but they are STILL not 100% interference free.

Corded mics don't need batteries, either.
(Unless it's a condenser... But that's why God invented "Phantom Power".)

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 01-23-2005 12:57 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Randy Stankey
Those 40 wireless microphones all in the same room are installed by a tech who knows his cookies. The room has been "swept" with a frequency analyzer to ensure there is no interference. The channels are picked to stay away from the local TV stations and other interference.

Er, ah, wrong again..... I've seen well over 20 of these particuluar units work in the same live theatre situation. Not to knock something till you've tried it would be what I would say and I do have extensive experience with these units. When you order the 1400 series from AT you tell them if you are going to have multiple units in one room, or location. They then send you a group of units properly frequency spaced that will work properly in one room or location together. While these are diversity units they are not frequency agile nor do thay have user selectable frequency... hence the very low price for them. You've also obviously missed the fact that they have been alloted their own frequency band by the FCC, 732 MHz to 746 MHz, so no TV station, radio station, or otherwise is going to appear on your band.... only some "frequency bandit". They're pretty simple and they work and I've had the opportunity to see them work in the counrtys most cluttered airwaves... here in SLC. Would they work in all places, probably not but that is another issue. Literally there would have to be another wireless transmitter on your frrequency for that to happen.

Mark

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