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Author
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Topic: Lateral shift and Loud noises in the gate on NLC and LGF prints
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Jason Gazaille
Film Handler
Posts: 46
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2004
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posted 03-02-2005 04:28 AM
We started running "Son of the Mask" last Friday. I ran a fresh Film Guardedpad on the print for 2 days like most new prints. During the second day, the print started to shift back and forth in the gate, making a really loud noise and shifting the picture on-screen. I removed,cleaned and lubricated the gate. Same thing. We moved the print and it did the same. All the trailers played perfectly. NLC sent us a new print and it's run great without Film Guard.
We started running Diary of a Mad Black Woman this Friday on a different projector from the other two, only to have the same problem, but on a less severe level.
We have been running Film Guard on all our prints since January 7th, when it arrived from GTS. Our films are spotless and none of our digital soundtracks have gone to fail. We absolutely love the product. NLC and LGF prints seem to have never had problems in our projectors before and I can't figure out why it's happening now. I cannot imagine how the Film Guard could cause this. There is no blotching on the print, scratches, and a flawless Dolby track. I never run fresh pads consecutively on the same print. All other studio's prints run great with amazing results.Are some types of film stock more sensitive to how much you use? Because our new copy of "Son of the Mask" is perfect, and our first print ran fine until Film guarded, I have to belive that the Film Guard has something to do with it, even though it may not be the problem.
We have Christie projectors with AW-3 platters. I use Kelmar media cleaners that seem to be working properly. There is no apparant damage to the print visibly. Our gates were destroying digital soundtracks very quickly EXCEPT on LGF and NLC prints, usually within a week. The Film Guard stopped this completely. NLC and LGF prints seemed immune to the abrasiveness of the Christie gates. Both these prints came new. Both played perfectly during the first day of run and progressively start this intermittent "shifting" on and off throughout the film when the Film Guard is applied.
Can anybody tell me what would cause this to happen only on these specific prints when Film Guard was applied in the same manner on over 20 prints in the last 2 months with no problems??
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Monte L Fullmer
Film God
Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004
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posted 03-02-2005 04:53 AM
Are your Christies the Christie 35, or the P35GPS machines?
If it be the P35GPS units, wonder if your double set of lateral guide rollers are out of alignment. Are you lubricating the "rubys" jewels at the ends of the guide rollers in the gates as mentioned in the manuals with any form of teflon spray? If not, the "rubys" will wear down and the guide rollers will have some lateral slop to not hold the film evenly.
How are the bands, have they been changed out, and how is the wear factor as of now when you wrote this post?
Aligning the double set of the lateral guide rollers take a special alignment tool that is available from Christie. Also, with the bands, are they parallel with the runners in the gate when the gate is closed over the bands? The bands will shift to the side if not aligned correctly when new bands are installed.
What is the gate tension number at? Should be at the lowest it can be - position "1" preferably. Anything higher meaning that the bands are worn and excessive pressure is needed to contain the weave.
What kind of media are you using with the Kelmars - white, blur or green? Are you soaking the media to the core with the FG, or just lightly spraying FG on the media?
True, "poly" film is more abrasive than acetate, especially with banded trap and gates. With the digital damage on these NG/LF prints, it makes me wonder if your bands are truly getting tired and needs replacing. Plus, with this damage, maybe there is too much FG going on the prints and thus excessive buildup in the trap and gate assemblies.
When the noise occurs, are the sprockets "nicked" and the film wind is suddenly very "sloppy and loose" on the deck - showing that the intermittent sprocket is working hard to pull down the film through the gate and trap assembly? If so, then there is way too much tension in the trap assembly.
Some areas to look at...
NL and LG films uses the DeLuxe stock and with my experiences with both I've never had any problems with DeLuxe using the P35 machines.
thx- Monte
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 03-02-2005 05:05 AM
It's the gate. Seriously. You can physically swap it between two projectors and you will see that the problem follows the gate, not the projector head. Christie had a bad batch of them in the mid to late 90s, and they wreak havoc with Fuji prints if there is even the slightest bit of lubrication on the print. (But of course without lubrication, your digital tracks will quickly wear off.) Look at the edge of your problematic prints...they are all Fuji!
Your only solution is to swap the whole damned thing. It's not the bands or the lateral guide rollers, it's some funky combination of the entire assembly that was not machined properly. Been there, done that. UA Galaxy had 3 of those damned things out of the 9. (The other 6 were bulletproof even if the film was LITERALLY dripping wet when it entered the projector.) Call Christie and have them swap it out free of charge. (Yes I said "free", after all the part IS defective.)
What year did your theater open?
Also, LOWER your gate tension! Most people see the shaking and panic thus increasing the tension. Not on a Christie!!! Turn that sucker DOWN to help stabilize the Fuji issue. Also unless you have physical deformities to your gate bands, DO NOT CHANGE THEM. The older ones will do you better service than brand new ones. New ones are too stiff and will exaggerate the problem just like increasing the gate tension does.
If Christie or your dealer thinks you are overreacting and wants you to jump through hoops trying this and that, ask them to please contact me. I will explain all of the ridiculous things the Christie techs had me go through only to still find that the gate assemblies were defective. Christie's customer service is quite good, so it shouldn't be any big deal to swap out those few defective gates you have in the complex.
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Jason Gazaille
Film Handler
Posts: 46
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2004
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posted 03-02-2005 11:45 AM
Monte,
They are P35GPS.
We clean and lubricate that portion routinely.
The only films I have issues with are those that come from NLC and LGF-and only with Film Guard on them.
Diary of a Mad Black Woman is printed on Kodak film stock.
Either I miswrote or misunderstood on this. Without Film Guard, my NLC and LGF prints are the only ones that DO NOT have problems with our gates. ALL others do.
We use Filmtech media pads. I soak them completely, down to the core, run the film on it once, turn it a few extra times, and cut the media to size with the print. Never does a film run on a saturated pad twice in a row.
Funny, we were running our films on a gate tension of 0, but Christie came and changed them to 2, and that's where they are now.
I'll talk to my boss about getting the alignment tool.
We have not changed out the bands. This problem has occured since theatre opening, which is 15 months.
The film is a little sloppier on the deck, but doesn't appear to be loose. There appears to be no damage to the sprockets on affected films.
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Brad,
This is happening on all the gates that play LGF and NLC prints. Diary is printed on Kodak stock, says so on the film itself. If I move the affected film to 6, 9, 13, or 8 it stays the same. I haven't moved the affected prints to others. I'm basically batting 1000 here. All that we've tried have the same problem.
We opened in November of 2003. We had the problem with digital tracks since opening. The Film Guard has stopped all of that.
Even on the affected prints, the digital tracks run as new.
Lowering the tension on the gate made our problem worse.
The only factor between Son of the Mask A and Son of the Mask B is Film Guard. A ran horribly loud and the print shifting was unbearable. B still runs like new with no degradation of the soundtrack.
I know my problem is not with the Film Guard product itself, I may be applying it wrong or something. I will investigate the problem more, but I don't think ALL our gates could be defective. Also, other studios have sent us Fuji film stock and it's run completely fine, even on the aforementioned projectors. The rollers spring back and appear to function normally.
After I cut the pad from Diary, I ran it on Man of the House with not a single problematic symptom. Looks and sounds great.
We had our service technician come down and look at the gate and he says the jewels may need replacing and ordered us some, but that was only on the first projector and he didn't actually see the affected print. We had already put Are We There Yet?, which had been treated, in that auditorium with no problems.
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